[PThomas]

Rainmakers (RTJ II) and Outlaw (John Lafoy) ...i think the latter is open, not sure about the former

anyone been out to either of them?

[Andy Troeger]

I know a guy that played both last week, so I would assume that means they are "open." I also haven't had a chance to ask him what he thought. Ruidoso is a beautiful area but it got hammered with some flooding/heavy rain by the remnants of one of the hurricanes so not sure if that caused any problems.

I doubt I'll get down there until next summer. It will be interesting to see if they push the bar for best in state level courses. I'm playing Las Campanas Sunrise tomorrow weather permitting, I'm looking forward to seeing that one.

[Pat Brockwell]

I've booked an outing at Outlaw in Oct.  Will keep you posted.

[Bill_McBride]

I know a guy that played both last week, so I would assume that means they are "open." I also haven't had a chance to ask him what he thought. Ruidoso is a beautiful area but it got hammered with some flooding/heavy rain by the remnants of one of the hurricanes so not sure if that caused any problems.

I doubt I'll get down there until next summer. It will be interesting to see if they push the bar for best in state level courses. I'm playing Las Campanas Sunrise tomorrow weather permitting, I'm looking forward to seeing that one.

Andy, please share your thoughts about Las Campanas Sunrise.  I played there with Lou Duran before the Black Mesa outing a few years ago and had some thoughts of my own about this Nicklaus design.  I look forward to your views.

[PThomas]

I know a guy that played both last week, so I would assume that means they are "open." I also haven't had a chance to ask him what he thought. Ruidoso is a beautiful area but it got hammered with some flooding/heavy rain by the remnants of one of the hurricanes so not sure if that caused any problems.

I doubt I'll get down there until next summer. It will be interesting to see if they push the bar for best in state level courses. I'm playing Las Campanas Sunrise tomorrow weather permitting, I'm looking forward to seeing that one.

Andy, please share your thoughts about Las Campanas Sunrise.  I played there with Lou Duran before the Black Mesa outing a few years ago and had some thoughts of my own about this Nicklaus design.  I look forward to your views.

Ace, what did you think of it?

[Bill_McBride]

I know a guy that played both last week, so I would assume that means they are "open." I also haven't had a chance to ask him what he thought. Ruidoso is a beautiful area but it got hammered with some flooding/heavy rain by the remnants of one of the hurricanes so not sure if that caused any problems.

I doubt I'll get down there until next summer. It will be interesting to see if they push the bar for best in state level courses. I'm playing Las Campanas Sunrise tomorrow weather permitting, I'm looking forward to seeing that one.

Andy, please share your thoughts about Las Campanas Sunrise.  I played there with Lou Duran before the Black Mesa outing a few years ago and had some thoughts of my own about this Nicklaus design.  I look forward to your views.

Ace, what did you think of it?

I don't want to spoil it for Andy, I'll wait for his report!

[Andy Troeger]

I actually meant Sunset, the newer one. I'll go back up to play Sunrise in September/October.

Sunset is ranked #1 in the state by GD, and I do recommend playing it if you can. The back nine has some REALLY good stuff, a split fairway par four (#16), a couple interesting par fives, a wild almost U shaped green on a short par four (#14), and solid par threes. The scenery is very nice, maybe not quite as good as Paa-Ko or Black Mesa but the homes on Sunset are fairly sparse and away from play. The 18th would be very polarizing as its a 462 (tips)/400 yard par four over a pond with a brick wall short. Its a gorgeous hole, and one could always lay up short of the water, but its probably not a hole that would be a favorite by GCA.com patrons. There's enough width in the fairway and a bank behind the green helping those who go long trying to avoid the water, so I think it works better than other holes of similar type.

The front nine had a couple odd holes; the 5th is a dogleg par five where you can hit driver through the fairway into a pond. Its kind of a double layup (probably could hit driver from the tips, but I'm not into 7600 yards). The 7th looks cool from the highly elevated tee; you hit it out to a fairly wide fairway short of a pond that fronts the green. Then you get to your ball in the fairway and the pond is actually HIGHER than about 80% of the fairway so if you don't hit it all the way to the end of the fairway you then have a 175 yard shot or so over a pond to a green you can't see (and the water is right on the green). There is a bail out area long and right at least, but its an odd hole.

Once I have more time to digest I'll put it either 3rd/4th in the state of what I've played (above/behind Pinon Hills). I hold Black Mesa and Paa-Ko Ridge in very high regard so not many places match those two whether in NM or otherwise.

[Bill_McBride]

Andy, that sounds more interesting than Sunrise, which I found to be pretty pedestrian for a course over interesting terrain. 

[Andy Troeger]

I got the impression from everyone I talked to that they considered Sunset to be the better of the two. I'll try to bring this thread back up once I play Sunrise.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Las Campanas looks very nice from the different times I've played but it looks and plays more sculptured than those layouts (see Black Mesa) that are more tied to the native countryside.

Jack's team has done better in making the course and the existing land blend a good bit better -- see Dismal River as one example, Outlaw Course at Desert Mtn is another that comes quickly to mind.

Speaking of Outlaw in the Ruidosa area -- be very much interested how a 6,900 yd max course can hold up against the altitude benefit you get from playing there.

I still like the Links at Sierra Blanca as the best alternative in the area.

One of the more overrated layouts in that part of NM is Inn of the Mtn Gods in Mescalero. The Ted R design has a few holes of note and even though they have poured some serious $$ into the facility I don't see how the layout got that much publicity in the first place.

In regards to Rainmakers -- also in the same neck of the woods be curious to see how RTJ layout fares as well. I love that part of NM but the golf dimension has yet to hit its full stride.

Be worth hearing from those who get to play both.

Frankly, the bar for quality golf still resides in the northern tier of the state.



 

[Brad Tufts]

Anyone played Sierra del Rio down in Elephant Butte?

I believe it's brand new...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Have you played both courses at Las Campanas or just the original one? I think your comments apply to the new one for the most part, although I thought most of the back nine worked pretty well. Its not "natural" looking and doesn't appear to have been really intended to be.

Brad,
Sierra del Rio opened last year I think. I've only played it once, its got a pretty good mixture of holes but isn't at the same level to me as the better public courses in the state IMO. Its on par with Marty Sanchez, Sierra Blanca, Twin Warriors, and Sandia for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I've played both Nicklaus layouts at Las Campanas.

The Digest rating is all wet in my book. Anyone not seeing Black Mesa as #1 in NM is equivalent to not haveing Sand Hills #1 in Nebraska. It's that similar in terms of course separation in the respective two states.

Andy, my point is that the design team for Jack simply focused on moving ahead of holes rather than tying them to the native landscape that is part and parcel of when you have a golf course in the "Land of Enchantment." I'm not saying either of the two is that bad per se as a golf option. However, when coming to New Mexico you do have better courses that weave themselves so closely to the native land and make the golf / land dynamic a very compelling theme with holes that you soon won't forget. At Las Campanas I didn't leave with the thought that the totality of the golf there was so unique and groundbreaking from any number of other Nicklaus courses.

Digest has two of the Las Campanas courses in the top four and candidly win Warriors is better than either of them. Ditto the qualities of Pinon Hills in Farmington and when not overly wet you can make an equally strong case for the Championship 18 at UNM.

[Andy Troeger]

I don't think there's as big of a separation between Black Mesa and Paa-Ko Ridge as you do, but I do find a good bit behind them to Sunset and Pinon Hills.

I do agree Sunset wasn't substantially different from other Nicklaus designs I've seen. I preferred Cougar Canyon to it by a fairly substantial margin.

I don't care for Twin Warriors personally, the repetitive nature of long par fours on the front nine gets too close to the "long slog" tendency for my liking. The course may be at elevation but the soggy nature of the course makes it play closer to its length than any other course in the area. It wouldn't make my top ten in the state. I'd rather play a wet UNM than a wet TW. The back nine does get quite a bit better, especially the middle stretch, but I'd take Santa Ana of the courses out in Bernalillo.

I do like Cochiti, even though I think its probably too short for your liking. I wouldn't put it top five in the state, but top ten certainly. It seems odd that there's nothing in Las Cruces that even remotely enters the conversation, although I haven't gotten down to Picacho Hills so I probably shouldn't dismiss that one without seeing it. Looking forward to Rainmakers and Outlaw once I get down that way again. I will most likely see Inn of the Mtn Gods then too.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I've played Cochiti twice and always left there wondering what all the fuss is about. What I gleaned is that remoteness is thought of by plenty of people as a mechanism to salute the course occupying such a given location.

If you seriously see the course as a top ten for all of NM then you and I see the golf in the Land of Enchantment from two really different viewpoints.

I have a huge amount of respect for Paa-Ko Ridge but Black Mesa is a good bit beyond the layout in Sandia. Paa-Ko has way too many overly shaped bowled-in fairways that clearly indicate man's hand was there. You also have bunkers that while they do "look" good are again a creature of man's hands and simply stand apart rather than work in conjunction with course itself. I also think the par-3 4th hole is rather silly with it's Macy department store three-level green although Adam Clayman thinks its rather well done.

Paa-Ko is a fine layout and the added nine holes also is quite appealing and worthy of attention. However, Black Mesa, for me at least, is akin to what I said before about Sand Hills in its overall place in Nebraska. Both are a good ways ahead of whatever course you want to add as the #2 in the respective states.

Last point about TW -- I'm not holding out for the layout because it's a treasure to golf design but it's quite more bite and more connection to the native land than the overly sculptured twin courses at Las Camapanas.

Like I said -- the Red Lawrence design at UNM -- when dry and firm -- can easily make a case for top five inclusion.

[Andy Troeger]

If you seriously see the course as a top ten for all of NM then you and I see the golf in the Land of Enchantment from two really different viewpoints.

What would your top ten include?

I would assume from your comments (not in order): BM, Paa-Ko, Pinon, UNM, LC Sunset, LC Sunrise...what are the other four?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Give me a night to thinkg about it -- I will say this though -- too many NM courses seek the route of over-watering because they don't want to have really firm conditions. Even the locals because they have been facing overly man-made wet conditions for years think that is the way golf courses should be set-up for daily play.

Fortunately, the folks at BM don't think that way.

I have always liked UNM / Championship but until very recently you could actually see pitch marks in the fairways even during the driest of summers. From what I understand there's a new superintendent -- if memory serves had been at BM as an assistant -- and has gone in another direction. Maybe someone who has played there recently can confirm.

I don't have anything negative to say about Las Campanas because the sheer depth of NM courses is still lacking. The Nicklaus approach filled the bill to provide golf by formulaic design -- save for a few holes of note. Anyone believing that either of the Las Campanas courses are beyond the likes of Black Mesa has need to return to architectural analysis level 101 to get their head straightened out.

[Jason McNamara]

Anyone believing that either of the Las Campanas courses are beyond the likes of Black Mesa has need to return to architectural analysis level 101 to get their head straightened out.

Has anyone on this site argued that?

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

No, the comments came from Digest with their state ratings. No doubt a few folks who rate courses for that pub also either post / lurk here. If they really see Black Mesa as the 3rd best course in the state they should come forward or say otherwise.

One other thing -- nearly all the pubs I have seen have Paa-Ko Ridge ahead of Black Mesa and while I enjoy the former I can't see (for the reasons I have mentioned) that being the case. Ken Dye did a good job with the design of the original 18 at Paa-Ko but it's overly sculptured through man's hands and has far less of the seamless look that connects itself as effortlessly to its native terrain area than what you see when you are at Black Mesa.

Black Mesa stand apart no less than Sand Hills stands apart any other course in the State of Nebraska. It's that dramatic, at least in my mind.

[Jason McNamara]

Thanks for the clarification, Matt.  I played P-K and UNM (liked both, agree w/ you about watering @ UNM) before Black Mesa was built.  Looking fwd to going back.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I have always liked UNM / Championship but until very recently you could actually see pitch marks in the fairways even during the driest of summers. From what I understand there's a new superintendent -- if memory serves had been at BM as an assistant -- and has gone in another direction. Maybe someone who has played there recently can confirm.

Matt,

I played there about 10 days ago and I can tell you those conditions are no longer the norm at UNM.  I joined up with a recently retired professor/member (who impressively shot under par from the tips) and he told me that things have really changed in the past season out there.  I found the greens to be firm (not as much so as Black Mesa/more so than Paa-Ko Ridge) and the fairways had a good bit of roll in them.  I was very impressed overall.

[Andy Troeger]

Kyle,
Good to hear regarding UNM. I'll have to get back out there this fall and see it again. Under par there is an achievement, its not an easy course by any means.

Matt,
I think Black Mesa suffers in the rankings because some panelists don't like/appreciate that kind of golf. Maybe they need to go to back to the 101 class, I certainly don't agree with them, but that's their opinion. The Kingsley Club in Michigan amongst others seems to struggle with that same issue. Some folks don't like the quirk and wild greens 

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Where's that top ten? 

Mine would probably go (only counting what I've played--so no LC Sunrise, Rainmakers, Outlaw, or Inn of the Mtn Gods):

1. Black Mesa
2. Paa-Ko
3. Las Campanas Sunset
4. Pinon Hills
5. Pueblo de Cochiti
6. UNM Championship
7. Santa Ana
8. Taos
9. Four Hills
10. Sierra del Rio

Most likely once the rest of the courses are added I would guess the list could change quite a bit, but I'm not going to guess in the meantime.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle K:

Thanks for the update . re: UNM. I believe the superintendent there now used to be Pat Brockwell's assistant at Black Mesa. Kudos to the folks at UNM for looking in the right direction for talent.

In regards to the firm turf at UNM -- that's most welcome news. I've always liked the course and unfortunately the Red Lawrence design often gets little attention because much of the focus of his courses in the SW portion of the USA goes automatically to Desert Forest in Carefree, AZ.

No doubt the previous impressions need to be wiped clean and it will take time for people to see the kind of things you have already seen with the turf conditions at UNM / Championship. If memory serves, I believe at one time Digest had the course in its top overall 100 courses.

Andy:

The reason Black Mesa suffers is because of the ignorance of a number of people who go there -- if they actually even make the effort. Keep in mind that if you changed the name of the designer from Baxter Spann to one of the more "preferred" classic school designers favored on this site the overall standing of the course would likely be higher -- probably much higher than what it is now.

Black Mesa espouses so much of what you see with such highly touted layouts like Pine Valley. You have slivers of fairways -- albeit quite wide in so many spots. There are preferred angles of attack and the course allows for different styles of play -- for those who can't play at a higher level the frontal tees can keep them in the game.

However, Black Mesa doesn't handle well people who can't hit the Texas Stateline if they were standing on the border with Oklahoma. Folks like that need to hone up on the practice tee and take lessons. The same situation would be no less for those same people if they visited that Jersey gem in the pinelands.

Andy, you say Black Mesa has "quirk." I don't see that. The holes are quite honest in all senses of the word. No doubt you get some bitchin and moanin about the 1st hole. Ditto what you see with other similar situations -- the 10th comes quickly to mind. What's so amusing is that if you took those same holes and transported them to Ireland you'd have the very same people gushing about how glorious and unique such a hole(s) is. Consistency of thought is always amazing isn't it!

The Kingsley Club and Black Mesa are two of the USA's top tier courses that have opened within the last 10 years. They demonstrate supreme thought provoking holes and I tip my hat to their designers.

Now, in regards to my top ten in NM.

1). Black Mesa

a fairly significant drop to the next ...

2). Paa-Ko Ridge
3). UNM / Championship

then there is a slight drop to the following ...

4). Pinon Hills
5). Santa Ana (Cheenya & Tamaya nines)
6). Twin Warriors

then another big time drop-off to the remaining three which likely could be switched with just about a few other layouts ...

7). Las Campanas / Sunset
. Santa Fe Country Club
9). Sandia
10). Possibly either Marty Sanchez, Four Hills or one of the other ones you mentioned. Definitely not Pueblo de Cochiti or Taos.

p.s. I have not played Sierra del Rio to date and would need to play it before judging its merits for top ten inclusion.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I'm not sure who you're trying to convince. I agree with you regarding Black Mesa. I'm just telling you that those two courses tend to polarize opinions. I may have to get to Santa Fe Country Club, I didn't realize it was anything of great consequence.

I do agree that after the top bunch it seems like 7-13 or so are all very comparable in my book.

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