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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« on: June 25, 2002, 06:29:40 AM »
In this architecture business it appears to me more now than ever that in many cases the "myth has become larger than the man" with all of the hype that surrounds many of the old guys today.  I have just spent a couple of weeks reviewing the original Ross drawings of Athens CC and find that only four were built as drawn.  Yet everyone praises this course(me too) and holds it out as a Ross design. It definitely is.  He was there for 4 days before it was built.  And he staked it during this time.  And he made mistakes that people don't think should be changed because "Ross placed it here".  Ross didn't have time to think about it.  Some of the "design intent" that I hear people discuss was never even thought about by the architect.  So why would anyone take a course that is considered a great golf course and start to alter it back to a set of drawings that were never placed there in the first place and if he had been on site would have been altered also.

So much hype has come from the classics and I appreciate the detailed studies and restorations that have taken place but almost case by case I can attribute the "greats" to a great piece of land acquired by a membership that had the means to carry a club forward thru good times and bad with the help of very good golf supts over the years.

These statements might be against the grain of this site but there are many architects out there today that can work with or improve these sites yet have their hands tied due to preconceived notions of the "myth".

This venting came about after playing Merion for a couple of days this month.  I thought the improvements were good both agronomically and design wise yet all I read here is of the "abortion".  IMHO it is just not so.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Cirba

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2002, 06:56:55 AM »
Mike,

If today's architects can so easily improve the classic courses, not only from an agronomic standpoint, but also from architectural and playability factors as you maintain, then why are so few original modern courses as enjoyable, thoughtful, daring, strategic, subtle, and creative as the classics?

Similarly, why do you think so many now decry changes that were done to classic courses over the decades, and are now fighting to restore what once was, ala Aronimink and many others?  Is it simply nostalgia?  Why aren't all of those changes viewed as major improvements, as you contend is so simple?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2002, 07:29:29 AM »
Mike Cirba,
I agree with your question.  I am saying that these designs have evolved and in many cases are better now than they were.  And that in many cases we try to complicate the design instead of just going with it.  I guess I would compare it to sort of like restoring an old car where it looks the same but maybe an acrylic paint was used and maybe the brakes are now disc.  Still loooks the same, maybe better.
As for what architects do today with designs....you must remember that many courses are not even designed with golf as the main item....housing...housing...that is what determines 250 of the 300 courses that are done in a year.  And the other reason you don't see many "classic looks" is land quality.
Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Cirba

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2002, 07:40:32 AM »
Mike,

Perhaps I'm just confused then by your example of Merion.  

Many thought that course had "evolved" rather beautifully, but the club's intent now is to do exactly what you seem to be arguing against...attempting to restore most features to exactly as they were in 1930.  Curiously, that does not include original fairway widths, but does include such features as bunkers guarding the creek on the 5th, which seem to have been in existence for about 10 minutes during the 30s until someone realized they were a bad idea.

I agree that the removal of trees there was a superb idea, and wonderfully executed.  It was also necessary to replace the drainage systems in the bunkers, and I would imagine that they are working as designed.  

What other architectural changes by Tom Fazio did you see as improvements?  

Also, is the secondary cut of rough there as high as it actually looks?  Driving by the other day, it looks like you could lose a golf bag in that stuff! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2002, 08:43:57 AM »
In taking a recent tour of many Maxwell courses I noticed that 3 courses in particular had significant work since the original design.  One of the courses was improved during that work, but the other two were changed for the worse.  In one case the club knew it but financially can't do anything about it right now.  The other though just didn't get the point as they are convinced that their course needed changed to suit the people that represent a tour.  And it wasn't just an aesthetic type of change.  They altered hole routings and green locations because of what the tour thought would work better for the players.  So I agree that some of this is nostalgia as to why we don't want to make these changes, but part of it is that many people today don't understand the implications of just moving a green 20 feet to the right or left and what changing the routing of two holes does to the flow of a course and what impact it has on the enjoyment of a round when you build two ok holes and eliminate one great one for the wrong reasons.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2002, 10:15:08 AM »
Mike Young:

I agree with you that sometimes the myth does become larger than the man.

Certainly there are some that say an old classic course, by a Donald Ross, for instance, should not be touched. And I know you feel that some on this site feel that way. It might be instructive though to look closer at why some might say that.

I realize that there are some purists that believe that nothing can possibly improve a Ross course because Ross did it (or they think he did it) and clearly this is not a particularly rationale approach. Some of these purists probably think Ross never made a mistake either which is even more ridiculous.

However, I think we probably have to realize that some of these people realize Ross did make mistakes and that his courses may be able to be improved in certain situations but they resist it anyway probably fearing that although changes could make things better there is too much risk that they wouldn't because those changes will be done poorly by people who don't understand much.

Face it, although this sounds like change vs none at all, it really isn't, its poor changes vs benefical changes and often that distinction and who's doing them gets very hazy and disputable.

My course is a good example. Clearly, by any standard Ross built three holes that were not working well. One was a poor hole by any standard and the other two were just too much for the majority of the membership and all three were changed in the 1930s! All three holes should have been changed--to some extent.

But then change obviously became the thing to do and another 4-5 holes were changed that in retrospect shouldn't have been or certainly not the way they were.

As for Merion, most of their project (which has been going on for about 12 years) will be benefical but not everything. I don't know how well you knew the course before the changes but even the most ardent supporters do not say that all the changes have been as good as was hoped for!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2002, 10:52:54 AM »
Mike Cirba,
Sorry I am confusing.  I cannot say that I am as familiar with Merion as many of you.  The issue I have heard on here was the bunkers and how the old look had been removed.  That may be but I still saw a traditional style golf course that on that day was as difficult as any I have ever played, yet still fair.  And it could be adjusted to any level of playability because of the overall design.  Fairways could be cut wider and rough could be lowered mainly but it was enjoyable as it was.  And as for the Fazio changes; I honestly do not know what all he did.  I enjoyed the course.  And yes that secondary cut was high but fair when overall course yardage was taken into consideration.
Don't think I am against classic architecture.  I appreciate it and try to practice it but it doesn't work on all sites that one is given today.  And the way my mind works...if I were to see Sharon Stone with a beehive hair style I might not think she looked that good but a few years back someone would have thought she was a babe.  I am the same with the outward appearance of the classics today.

TE Paul,
I can't say I knew Merion well before. The last time I played it was in 1984 and I liked it then.  I agree with the other statements that you make.  I think the key to any restoration of a golf course is to decide what year is the deciding year that you want to emulate.  For a committee to bring in an architect's original drawings and say that these must now be placed on the ground in order to have a true restoration is nonsense IMHO.  I feel that today we tend to look at the micro of a course where it is the macro elements of an old architect's design that allow it to stand the test of time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

TEPaul

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2002, 11:09:33 AM »
Mike Young:

I'm not certain that a restoration to a particular year is much of an idea either, at least not without understanding the creation and evolution of the course in minute detail.

Good examples of the divergence in this might be Merion in comparison to Cypress Point.

It's quite clear that Merion was probably not even finished until 1934 (it opened in 1912) while from the extensive and comprehensive photos of Cypress that course may well have been as good as it ever was almost at opening!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Young

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Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2002, 01:37:35 PM »
TE,
I am not saying any particular year.  It could well be that the year chosen is the first year of opening.  I am saying it cannot be a mix and match of years or styles.
For example.. Athens CC is a good golf course...a few tree problems and some greens encroachment but overall good.  Changes were made in 1951 and in 1968.  They were not done in the spirit of Ross but they were done.  At the same time our original Ross course was built by local farmers using a Ross routing plan and 2 dimensional green and hole details.  They had the strategy of Ross due to his staking and bunker plans but the subtlety was missing.  It has had to evolve.  So our best year may have been 20 years after opening.  And in reviewing a war dept photo that bob Crosby found from 1938, there was not much money to change from 1926 thru 1938.  And on top of that; being in a college town with a large academic membership; votes were often against change.  That helped us.
My question is why would one restore for the sake of restoring to what they interpret as a particular architect's style when it is working fine  strategically , aesthetically and agronomically.  
Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lester George

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2002, 03:21:58 PM »

Mike Young,

I was once engaged to "restore" an old Donald Ross course that the club absolutely revered to the point of monotony.  Imaging their feeling when I informed them that The golf course was designed by Herbert Barker, redesigned by George O'neil, then redesigned by Ross, then redesigned by another architectafter Ross.  They also tried to convince me that all of Ross' bunkers were (surprisingly) round and had grass all the way down the face (to the point of not seeing most of them) for easy maintenance.  

Another club I renovated was convinced, and I must admit almost had me convinced, that Perry Maxwell had done the original, when in fact Stiles and Van Kleek were the original architects.  

My point is that people, given enough "eveidence" will believe what they want to believe.  What may be vogue to restore today will be different in ten years.  We don't build battle ships out of wood anymore, but we know they will float.  Todays architects are faced with entirely different circumstances than those of yesteryear.  The courses from that era, no matter how exemplary, will, and need to undergo modernization at some point to compete in the market for both the public and private golfer's attention.  

I am currently doing a strict restoration of a Charles Banks course.  Even at that, I am making chnges to incorporate today's ball flight, irrigation, maintenance and other factors.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2002, 03:52:04 PM »
Lester George,

Your post sounds like a solid dose of reality.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Bernhardt

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2002, 04:15:30 PM »
Mike I believe this is a great post as is Lester's. I am amazed by how many clubs have poor records of the work done and by who. I agree for the most part the evolution is as important as the original design. What was your first thought when you found Athens had only 4 original holes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2002, 06:52:33 PM »
Mike --

Good thread. I do agree, for the most part, when people wax nostalgia about the "good ole days" they really don't have a clear sense of history or perspective. Plenty of "classic courses" from yester year were so dynamic they now occupy the sub-base for a great number of malls through the USA. ;D My point? Not everything done in the past is to be held as the epitome of greatness but too often people equate age with super stardom.

Case in point -- Donald Ross. You listen to some people and to be believed the man must have had a jet at his disposal to get to the number of courses (500 ?) he's atributed to designing. The Ross story is akin to how many beds Washington slept in during the colonial war. ::)

Golf isn't about resurrecting the past -- it's about learning from it and moving ahead. When a "classic course" is resorted / modernized (whatever the PC word is!) the test in my mind -- is the course enhanced beyond what it was? Sometimes -- the adage of "if it's not broken then don't fix it" applies.

The quality of many young architects today is truly outstanding given the constraints they face compared to previous generations. I've been fortunate to play a good deal of courses and I admire those working today who succeed even against long odds when the shadow of the "myth" encroaches upon their career development. ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2002, 08:04:46 PM »
The current course set up at Merion with the extremely high secondary rough is what I would call a "match play" set up vs. a "medal play" set up.  I happen to like it, however, I'd be curious to hear what most Merion members and/or higher handicappers think?  My guess is that it will frustrate the majority of them as the need to post a true score mentality is very prevalent these days.  As the course is now, I think there is plenty of room to play golf shots, however, if you hit it crooked, you have little (really no chance) to find and or play that same golf ball again.  The only option is to reload!  The set up is very penal on a poor golf shot!  

The bunkers are much deeper then in years past and the maintenance budget must be horrific.  They are struggling to keep grass growing on some of them like the front greenside bunker on #8.  The bunker wool that lines every bunker could also cause some problems as well.  I've heard a number of bunkers are already having issues as a result of it!  

I have to say though that the course looked better than you would have thought from the discussions here.  The bunkers clearly need time to age and hopefully that new modernistic look will wear away.  

I still love the place!!
Mark

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2002, 08:41:51 PM »
Mark,

Whoa!  Hold on a second!

You are agreeing with Mike Young and Lester George that modern architects can often vastly improve classic courses by significantly changing them architecurally, and because of a few examples where the architectural attribution was in doubt or error they should be given carte blanche to say, screw the past, let's get on with it and leave our modern mark!

Even Patrick, who will probably gnaw someone's arm off if they suggest that anything at Garden City should be different than the course was in the mid 30s, calls these ideas, "a solid dose of reality".  

The ironic, sadly humorous part of all of this is that the recent changes at Merion are being held up to support this idea.  

So, let's review what what we've learned so far as to how Merion was improved, shall we?

Mike Young says it's still a "traditional" golf course, and not an abortion.

Mark cited the fact that the knee high secondary rough makes it more of a "match play" course because one is likely to lose their ball on a misplayed shot that finds it.  So much for creative recovery, apparently.

But, listen to this laundry list of "improvements", citing the most visible portion of the work, the bunkers.  I'll let Mark's own words speak glowingly as to how a vaunted modern architect was able to "improve" Merion significantly;

"The bunkers are much deeper then in years past and the maintenance budget must be horrific.  They are struggling to keep grass growing on some of them like the front greenside bunker on #8.  The bunker wool that lines every bunker could also cause some problems as well.  I've heard a number of bunkers are already having issues as a result of it!"  

"I have to say though that the course looked better than you would have thought from the discussions here.  The bunkers clearly need time to age and hopefully that new modernistic look will wear away."

What a resounding roar of approval!!

Somewhat happily, Mark tells us he still loves the course anyway!  Thank GOD for improvements!!! ;)

Am I the only one here who can cite any real improvements at Merion after all of the work, effort, modern genius, implementation of technology, time, money, etc.??  I believe my post above talked about the positive effects of the clearing of trees.  

The rest of you need to find some better examples before presenting this evidence of the positive effects of modernization of classic courses.  Sheesh...I'd hate to have to argue this tripe in front of a judge.  

Next thing you guys will be saying is that Roger Rulewich's work at Yale has been beneficial in speeding play.  :(



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2002, 09:43:08 PM »
Lester
I don't think it is uncommon for a club not to have a handle on their architectural history. And I wouldn't be too hard on the membership, after all they had the foresight to hire you. After performing the research, what did you decide was the best plan of attack for the two courses?

Matt
I don't think generalizing is helpful.

Have you read 'Discovering Donald Ross' -- it provides an excellent insight into Ross's career?

I could name a number of contemporaries of Ross who were less than stellar. For every great of the past there were another ten who were not so great. And I don't think admirers of Ross, or any other talented past architect, claims they batted 1000. Generalizing about those who have attempted to study a handful of past architects and discovered a great deal to admire exhibits a certain bias. It seems to me the most talented young architects of today have borrowed a great deal from the past, and they are not generally keen on messing with the finite number of their outstanding works. In my view these standout designs should be protected, preserved and restored.

And do the contraints out weigh the technical advantages? I've seen quite a few 'classic' courses in this neck of the woods, and else where, and I'm hard pressed to identify which ones would have been effected by modern constraints. I'm sure there are some examples, but I can't think of any. Can you?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2002, 05:59:30 AM »
Tom MacWood:

As Ron Reagan used to say to Jimmy Carter -- "there you go again."

I have read the Ross book but my point still stands -- given time constraints and travel issues the idea that Ross actually had a direct and continuous hand in the design of 500 courses is truly beyond my imagination. Tom -- can you document with pinpoint certainty that Ross was everywhere as many do like to claim and had the daily interaction of involvement in ALL these courses?

I have played Ross courses and other "design stars" from the past and quite a few are just ordinary. Yes, thir overall contributions among their finest work is still noteworthy and always a pleasure to play (I've always enjoyed Plainfield as an example of Ross work -- as just one example).

I believe Mike's initial point for this thread (if you read it carefully), is that let's not automatically genuflect because of who was involved. In addition, my point is that changes / improvements to courses should be on one aspect -- did the work enhance the existing design.

Tom, you are the one who has interjected "bias" into the discussion. When all else fails you lob that bomb into center stage. Again, like Reagan said to Carter -- "there you go again."

Clearly, young architects of today do use "concepts" of many types of golf design philosophy in their design approach. There is no one "right way" and I know there are countless examples I could mention. Let's be clear -- from what I understand of your opinions / thoughts you are devotee of the "classic" school (courses from the distant past) and place little value on modern design.

I take the more pragmatic approach in reviewing courses and see Mike's thrust to have meaning. Golf is a game of continual evolution and that applies to courses as well. Not all work at modernization / restoration (again the PC word must apply) should be "burned at the cross" and there are clearly times when courses should be minimally tweaked with at best because the proposed solution may cause more harm than help. Botton line -- Mike's point is to see the entire process as a shade of "grey" and not in the "black and white" manner that others almost always seem to follow.

Tom -- I do not wish to haggle with you on the meaning of every word -- if you want to play that game contact Pat because he's more dogged than I.  You profess, again from what I understand, a certain preference for courses from the past -- amen! I see it differently. Case closed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2002, 07:08:33 AM »
Lester,
Your post is another way of saying what I am trying to say.  It doesn't matter who designed it .  If it works and people like it doesn't matter.  I have seen solid holes that were made weaker because someone wanted what they saw as an original piece of paper.  Some on this site construe anything said as modernization.  I see a person like Ross as a great router of golf courses with an excellent risk/reward strategic design.  But the way he had to go about having most of them built was horrific and in many instances it took time and good clubs with good supts to create what many see today as "Ross".  AND THIS IS IN NO WAY A CONDEMNATION OF ROSS.
And by the way, as you know, most any older course you speak with in the southeast will let you know "Ross was here".

John B,
" what was my first thought when finding only four greens were what he had drawn at ACC"
My first thought was why in the hell would we try to restablish something that was never there in the first place when what we have is strategically viable, aethetically pleasing, fits the land and Ross routing and the people like it.  They also think it is what "Ross" did.  No need to confuse them just mainly eliminate tree problems, cartpath problems and green encroachment.

Matt,
You say it well.  

Mark,
Merion is definitely set up as a matchplay course now.  I was there for the College basketball coaches vs. Cancer tourney and when they polled many of the teams as to whether they would rather play Caves Valley or Merion...Caves Valley won out due to difficulty at Merion.  I would have never thought this but that was the case.  Also, I did notice an inconsistency in the firmness of the sand but that is to be expected.

Mike Cirba,
"You are agreeing with Mike Young and Lester George that modern architects can often vastly improve classic courses by significantly changing them architecurally, and because of a few examples where the architectural attribution was in doubt or error they should be given carte blanche to say, screw the past, let's get on with it and leave our modern mark!"
I don't think the above statement is what I am saying at all.  I think I am saying more of the opposite.  I am saying many should not be touched except for issues such as cartpaths and trees, greens encroachment etc.  My issue is with people that take a set of original drawings that were never actually implemented on the ground and decide that they want to place these on the course.  I know of no architect that has ever had his drawings built as specified.  It is very common to design greens in the field as you know.  And then I see pictures of different old drawings on this site showing what one of the old guys left behind and most modern architects are laughing because they realize there was not enough detail in the drawing to implement it.
But none of this is to say I am for "modern style"  I AM NOT. I am just saying there is a lot of hype out there that just didn't exist.  How many classic courses were built?  maybe 2500?? And probably less than 100 are discussed here.  I would consider it the duty of a modern architect to try and preserve the overall integrity of a classic while integrating and recognizing modern technologies when it is necessary.  For instance..I have no problem with deeper bunkers at Merion.  There was no sand wedge when it was built and IMHO such a strategic decision helps to justify arguments of length...distance issues when trying to slam the classics.  I know that on the day I played..they could have easily hosted a n Open.  There were probably 30 4 man teams playing a gross single best ball and even par won.





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2002, 07:39:36 AM »
Matt
I understand what Mike Young is saying and I agree with him to a certain extent. Every course has a different story. If your charged with restoring (or remodeling) a golf course I think it wise to perform thorough research. Some courses were great the day they opened, other courses evolved and improved gracefully, other courses evolved but not so gracefully, some have been horribly disfigured and so on.

Member are understandibly proud of their golf courses and having a great name associated with their club is a source of pride. Unfortunately these people usualy do not know the architectural history of their course. That is where someone who has done the research and analyzed the situation can be helpful, and can educate those who are in a position to make the decisions.

For example you state that Ross couldn't have possibly had a hand in 500 golf courses. If you had read Klein's book you would see where he documented which courses Ross actually visited, which courses he actually produced a plan for and which courses have no record of either. Most people on this site are very knowledgable and understand that Ross devoted his personal attention to well under 500 courses. Does that mean these other courses are not worthy -- no, his associates were extremely talented and seemed to be extensions of his considerable skills. You can't make blanket assertations, each situation deserves its own study. Having a grasp of the facts is important.

I'm sure that many courses can be improved by young architects, but then again young architects have been claiming this for the last few decades with some very suspect results.

I am a devotee of designs that take advantage of natural features, that require thought and exhibit variety. It could be built 100 years ago or yesterday, I don't discriminate. I try not to use the term Classic - its thrown around too easily.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad miller

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2002, 07:42:55 AM »
Mike, what where the approx widths of Merion's fairways? Might that have changed the poll results, I sure hope so! :) Isn't CV hosting the SR OPEN, aren't they growing the long grass also?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2002, 07:59:03 AM »
I would say that their fairways were between 25 to 30 yards. And yes CV is hosting the Senior Open.  My point was meant to be that so many people out there do not understand what many on this site take for granted.  Statements like how nice the CV lockerooms were vs the metal lockers at Merion etc.  
REALITY is that 23,750,000 of the 24,000,000 golfers that play don't really care if it is classic, modern or what not just give them good greens, a great logo to buy and a grandified lockeroom and grill and you have it.  And if the truth be known I find that the attention paid to the lockeroom details will usually tell me what I want to know about the course before I tee it up.  Metal lockers and old showers say alot.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Lester George

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2002, 08:03:26 AM »

Tom,

In the case of the "Ross" course, rather than debating the facts discovered in the research I simply demonstrated to the committee that Ross did many types of bunkering and many were appropriate for their course.  If in fact the Ross look and feel was what they wanted then that's what we could achieve.  I simply wanted to educate them to understand the difference between the myth and reality.  In any event, the course turned out beautiful and the members who want to know the difference between fact and fiction, do.  

In the case of the second course, it really didn't matter as much to the powers who designed their original course as much as they were trying to recover from a less than adequate remodel that they underwent in the 70's.  They wanted more length and slightly more risk/reward.  They also wanted to have their slope rating increased so their handicaps were more tranferable to other courses.  In sumary, it was left up to me to enhance as much of the original routing as possible.  There was universal acceptance of the work and club is propering.  

As a sidebar, I don't think any architect on here is condeming the great architects of the past or discounting their work.  Nobody recognizes the value of the past more than architects today because of the myriad of constraints placed upon architects to perform restoration/renovation work in todays business environment.  The reality, however, is that some clubs have little interest in the past (however shocking that may sound to some) and could care less about the original architect or his intent.  Modern architects are entrusted in most cases with the awesome responsibility to "do the right thing" by their client.  Sometimes that just doesn't fit into the idea that we ought to look back, but forward.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2002, 08:13:40 AM »
Mike, that is exactly as I assumed, sorry to hear it confirmed, CV has some fine comfort points, but give me Merion, GCGC and SFGC any day. The best hybrid is probably Seminole which appeals to all, except for the course :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2002, 08:16:10 AM »
Mike Cirba,
I never said Merion was "improved" did I?  I just said it looked a little better then I was lead to believe from all the reports.  As a decent player, I don't mind the depths of the bunkers.  Frankly, I don't know how deep they were in 1930.  Hopefully the guy who built them did  ;)  

The match play set up is ok by me.  I went round in 77 from the tips so the course is playable.  Only hit it in the hay once (sadly on #1 when I blocked one right and had to take an unplayable).  Supposedly, so I'm told, the set up is what it was back in 1930 with the high second cut.  Someone who knows the history of Merion better than I can further comment!

I do stand by what I said in my other post on "design intent" that trying to understand what the original architect wanted and restoring that aspect of the design is probably the best you can do.  
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Myth is larger than the man in architecture
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2002, 08:33:48 AM »
Brad,

I'm not sure if your question was directed to me or Mike Young.  

I'll offer what I know.  Some time after the green resurfacing and bunker restoration work had started at Merion, first with one architect and then another, it was decided that the overall "theme" of the "restoration" was to return the course to the way it was during 1930.  Golf Publication and newspaper articles were written touting Merion's "Moving into the future by returning to the past".  

Photos from 1930 are fairly available, and showed a course with WIDE fairway lines, conjoined in some places, fairly rugged bunkers, though shallower in some cases, less trees, and basically the same routing and hazard placement since that time.

I have heard speculation about possibly widening some of the fairways, but that has not happened yet to my knowledge.  Instead, what has happened recently is that a hay-like secondary non-cut of rough has been grown where one could lose a golf bag.  Is this consistent with the 1930 restoration theme?

What has also happened is that various trees have been removed, most notably between 11-12, behind 14, and along the quarry on 16.  Merion had managed it's trees quite well over the decades, but these notable changes are entirely consistent with both the 1930 theme as well as an improvement to the course and should be lauded.

Finally, the bunkers.  I've played Merion pre and post bunker work, and to say I believe something unique has been lost to the world of golf is an understatement.  Others might look at them and say they look fine and dandy, but I simply disagree.  Merion bunkers never had thick bluegrass surrounds which were sodded and stapled in place during the construction effort.  What they had were rough, irregular, sand-flashed to the lip edges that integrated beautifully and naturally into their surrounds, without steep vertical grass faces (which they have now) and precise lines of demarcation, broken up with machine built capes and bays that attempt to look classical but come off like George Thomas in grammar school.

The bunkers are deeper for one simple reason.  The contractors found the original bunker floors and dug the new ones to that depth.  However, the top end of the bunkers, particularly ones that fronted greens such as 8 & 13 had a great deal of sand buildup on the faces over the years, which thusly created new top ends.  Because those top edges had become so integrated into their surrounds, even so far as becoming part and parcel of green contours, it was decided that there was too much risk involved in lowering them to their original 1930 heights.  Thus, you have a lower floor, but the ceiling is still raised.  Is this consistent with a 1930 restoration?  

Supposedly, Tom Fazio's organization was provided with pictures of the bunkers and their marching orders were "build these".  The bunkers are NOT deeper because someone decided to make the course tougher due to the onslaught of technology.  The are deeper because of fear of what messing with the top ends of them might bring in terms of sweeping changes in playability in terms of today's green speeds.

Now, Mark Fine points out that the bunkers are having structural and agronomic problems, after all the time and money spent "restoring" them.  A few weeks ago, Wayne Morrison spent some time there looking at bunkers that were on the verge of structurally collapsing.  I find this very sad, and feel badly for the club.  Anyone familiar with the complexities of those bunker shapes and contours should have realized that a machine-based approach, with over 100 bunkers being dug out and completely rebuilt in less than 9 months was probably not a good scenario for success.  If any bunkers in the world cried out for fastidious hand-work to get the details right, it was the former "white faces" of Merion.  I have a hunch the club was sold a bill of goods, accentuated by the club's wish to have the work done ASAP in light of the 2005 U.S. Amateur.      

Mike Young points out that the course is setup so tough and penal with the new deep rough and deeper bunkers that it could have hosted a US Open the day he was there.  Finally, I have to ask, is THAT consistent with a 1930 restoration?

Mike Young;

Thanks for clarifying your point, which I missed some of the finer details on.  Would you agree, however, that each course is unique, and the more valid research and understanding of things like original design intent, architectural philosophy of the primary architect, reasons for change and evolution, as well as historical photos and overheads are invaluable to the process?

I agree that a "little" knowledge is a dangerous thing, particularly considering your original premise that revering the past without understanding it fully leads to similar error-prone results.  I would no more want to tackle a restoration project based on old drawings alone than you would, I'm sure.  How does anyone know that those weren't PLAN A, when inevitably PLAN W got implemented?  

A good example of somewhat blind adherence to some dogmatic approach can be found at Merion, as well, on the wonderful 5th hole.  

Early pictures from 1930 show no fairway bunkering on the left side near the creek.  However, sometime probably right before the US Amateur, someone decided to add a nest of bunkers on the left side which effectively protect balls from going into the creek.  By 1950, those bunkers were gone, and probably much before then.  They were a bad idea, from an architectural, aesthetic, playability, and strategic standpoint.

Yet, those bunkers have now been "restored" as part of Fazio's work, in the form of two little "pots" sitting along the creek.  If ever a better natural hole was built that needed none of that kind of fussy tinkering, it was the 5th.  Hugh Wilson was dead at that point, so it sure wasn't him who installed those bunkers.  Yet, there they sit, begging the questions that have so many of us very defensively screaming when we hear that another classic course is going to be "modernized" by a present day architect, even if they use the politically correct misnomer "restoration".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:06 PM by -1 »

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