[BVince]

I started this thread as just a concept and really can't believe how excited I am about the idea.  The "length game" is purely hypothetical at this point, but it is necessary to consider when conceptualizing the holes.  I think the first truly successful par 6 would need 17 other really good golf holes to accompany it.  The par 6 would need a nasty hazard that could easily gobble up an errant aggressive play.  The risk reward would be need to be nothing short of greatness.

[JMorgan]

The original Emmet design for Congressional featured two par 6 holes -- 1 and 10. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

I played one Par 6 in my life (and birdied it after being on in three ;-)

It is on a golf course called PGA New Course in Himmerland, Denmark. Here is the course guide, scroll up to hole #10. Attention: these are meters, not yards.

http://hgcc.v4.baseshop.dk/documents/PDF/New%20Course/index.html

As you can see you need to clear a bunker with the drive and then a good fairway wood clearing some central bunkers - this will leave you an iron into the green.

Ulrich

[Tom_Doak]

Ulrich:

That's sort of what I was describing, except there are too many hazards for my tastes ... looks like a lot of people are going to MAKE ten on #10!

It looks like a new course, who designed it?

[Stu Grant]

Two more par-6's:

Black Bear Ridge in Belleville, Ontario, Canada had a 690 yard par-6 when it opened in 2006 however I see now on their website it has been changed to a 690 yard par-5.  Although the yardage is a bit short for a par-6 I thought it was a pretty decent hole.  Dog-leg right around a water hazard, then hit to a good-sized island green.  I hit driver, then driver, then hit the green from 170 yards out and two-putted for a well-earned birdie.

The International Club (Pines) Course in Bolton, MA from the Tiger Tees has a par-6 measuring 718 yards which in my opinion was the easiest hole on the 8,325 yard layout.  It is a hole that doglegs left around trees after about 540 yards, so if you can hit your first two shots that far then you only have 150 yards in for your third shot.  Ironically the hole is a much more difficult par from the next tee deck because it is a 607 yard par 5...much tougher to par than a 718 yard par 6!

I've got no problem with the occasional par-6...when you play as many different golf courses as most people on this site do, I think it's refreshing to see something really unusual, particularly if it works.   

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom D - thanks. Though you write clearly, I had to read your post a couple of times before I started understanding it. I think what you're describing is a hole that challenges good players more than most Par 5s do while at the same time giving the average player a better chance at making par. Like I say, I think I understand that, and it sounds good; but honestly, I still can't envision it on the ground. But I guess that's why I'm me, and you're not....

Peter

[Mike_Cirba]

The original Emmet design for Congressional featured two par 6 holes -- 1 and 10. 

James Morgan!

Where the hell have you been?

Nice to see your face around these parts.

Your sanity has been missed, I reckon.

[Evan Fleisher]

The 7th hole at Black Diamond GC in Millersburg, OH is a 660-yard par-6...but it is merely a long, straight hole with some humpy-bumby fairway undulations along the way...nothing all that special.

[Ken Moum]

For what it's worth, according to the USGA historical timeline:

In 1911, the USGA increased yardage for determining par:

Three — up to 225 yards
Four — 225 to 425 yards
Five — 426 to 600 yards
Six — 601 yards and over

In 1917, Par yardage is again changed:

Three — up to 250 yards
Four — 251 to 445 yards
Five — 446 to 600 yards
Six — more than 600 yards

[John Moore II]

For what it's worth, according to the USGA historical timeline:

In 1911, the USGA increased yardage for determining par:

Three — up to 225 yards
Four — 225 to 425 yards
Five — 426 to 600 yards
Six — 601 yards and over

In 1917, Par yardage is again changed:

Three — up to 250 yards
Four — 251 to 445 yards
Five — 446 to 600 yards
Six — more than 600 yards

And now:
Three -- up to 250 yds
Four -- 251 to 470 yds (unless playing a USGA event, then it may go to 520ish)
Five -- 471 to 690 yds
Six -- more than 691 yds

To go with this, I've never understood why the USGA is willing to make a par 4 play in the range is 500 yards, but they are so leary of playing a par 5 above 600, it never happens (now, given, very few par 5's much above 600 exist). But if you are saying that players can reach a 500 yard hole in 3 shots, they only have a 100 yard shot left into a 600 yard hole, or 150 into a 650 yard hole, and 650 is as long as I can remember seeing on tour. I think, in general, the distance standards for holes should be raised. 300 max for par 3, 525 max for par 4, 750 max for par 5. Those are reasonable given the length of the 'average' scratch player today.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

The Par 6 has been around sometime and I was fortunate to have the oppurtunity to design and construct one on at the Limpachtal Golf Course in Switzerland, which is now in it’s 5th season.

The “archives” on golfclubatlas will reveal at least 2 threads where the Par 6 was discussed.
Historically the original Hole 1 at Prestwick where Young Tom Morris got an “unbelievable” 3 is considered as the equivalent of a Par 6 (read their web site). Of course they didn’t have Par in those days so in the historical sense a Par 6 is as meaningless as a Par 4 or 5, ie who needs Par.

My Par 6 was 666m long, the Devil’s Number, that’s approximatly 728 yards long.
The Par 6 evolved during the routing design and was not intentionally designed from the outset. While jiggling around the holes for one of my variants to fit the topography and site features I was left with an over long Par 5 and an extra Par 3. The client wanted a Par 72 so with with a Par 6 the score card could be satisfied and the other holes, which all fitted well into the site, respected. I liked the look and feel of the Par 6 hole and felt confident enough to recommend it to the client.

The philosophy behind the hole was too make it a birdie oppurtunity but with a high risk 3rd shot. A good tee shot, which must clear a ditch at 240 yards, and a good second shot are necessary to put the golfer in a position for a go at the green, which is defended by a long intimidating stretch of water to the front and left hand side of the green. For a closer look see

http://www.golf-limpachtal.ch/de/platz_18lochplatz.php#

The hole met with a lot of scepticsm when the drawing of the lay out was introduced to the swiss golfers. However since the course has opened for play it has turned out to be very popular and is a highlight of the round.

The course is used regularly by the Swiss PGA for their annual Match Play Championships and is a qualifying event for the Swiss Open, a European Tour event. It’s probably the only hole on the course where the Golf Pros have to play 3 full shots to the green as 2 of the Par 5’s are reachable and the other if not reachable in 2 only requires a short pitch to the green.

[Kyle Harris]

JKM,

There is a 600 yard par 5 on a US Open course down the road from where you work.

I think the 4th at Oakmont played in excess of 600 yards two summers ago...

That's 3 instances in the past 9 years.

[John Moore II]

Kyle-There was also a 600+ yarder this year at Torrey, and it actually played like a real par 5, for the most part. I am simply saying that it has become normal to see a par 4 played at 500 yards, but people really wet the bed when the put the par 3 at 290+ for the Open at Oakmont. Its the same idea. And if they were to ever want to play a par 5 at 700+ people would say the USGA was flatly insane, but again, its the same idea.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I believe the International, in Bolton, MA has either a par 6 or an 800 yard hole.

Perhaps someone familiar with the course can clarify the above.

[Ian_L]

Several already exist.

The 18th at Lake Chabot in Oakland, CA.  I doubt they would play it as a 6 if a top tournament came thru though.  The flat bellies could easily reach it in 3.

They'd have a good chance at reaching it in 2, actually.  There was a long drive contest there decades ago and the average drive was 427 yards, which would leave about 240 straight downhill for the second shot.  I'll be playing the course this weekend (unfortunately), so if anyone's interested I can post a couple pictures.  They call it the "ski run."


In the end, I don't think par matters at all except for the psychological aspect of the game.  Mathematically, it doesn't affect stroke play, match play, or your handicap (which is solely based on course rating and slope).  It always seems silly to me when people complain that a long par 4 is too hard, or discard a great par-5 hole because it's easily reachable in two shots for the longer hitter.  Anyway, most players say at the end of the day, "I shot 82," not "+10" or "+11."  So who cares if it's a monster par 5 or a tame par 6?

P.S. Thanks to everyone here for the great website and forums.  I suspect I'm much less experienced in the world's courses and the art/science of golf architecture, so I'm sure I've got much to learn here.

[John Moore II]

Ian--please post pictures of the entire course. We need more profiles of poor (i assume its poor/not great) courses to better see what is good about the good courses.

[Ian_L]

Sorry JKM, are you being sarcastic or sincere? (I'll get the hang of it soon)

I'd be more than happy to post pictures of the entire course (I'll be taking a bunch of pics there anyway).  I'll try to hold off on my own opinion of the course and see what you all think (assuming you actually do want to see the course).

[John Moore II]

Sorry JKM, are you being sarcastic or sincere?

I was being serious.

(I'll get the hang of it soon)

Actually, you probably won't soon get the hang of it... We all often times misunderstand things and it can lead to some quite heated exchanges, quite fun really

[Ian_L]

Alright then, be ready for some pictures early next week. 

[Matt MacIver]

I've often thought that par 6s and higher would be great at executive courses.  Say, three par 8's with a two-three par 3s scattered in?  Something playable in 1-1.5 hours where you could use every club in your bag.  Less real estate, cost less to design & maintain, charge less, etc.  I think this mini-loop would be great for practice, side-bets, families, etc.

On a full-scale course I would love to see it - as long as it's done "right". 

[john_stiles]

To keep my interest,  I think a par 6 would have to have some sort of a dogleg, or kink, around a natural feature or two,  to make it interesting.

A long straight slog of 800 yards or more might not be interesting after a while, even though you might well play next to a hazard or two.

[Forrest Richardson]

Par-6? Sure.

I proposed one to my team a few years back — and was laughed out of the room. So, I settled for a par-6 option at Hole No. 18 (just past this hill in the photo below.)

It plays 660-yards from the back. I think it works. You can opt for a par-5 or par-6...your choice.

[Bill_McBride]

"Highland Oaks," one of the better layouts on the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail in Dothan, Alabama, has a 701 yard par 5 that really works.  We played it from the 660 yard tees.  The tee shot needs to avoid bunkers set in a hillside left and then you find a downslope that adds yards to the tee shot.  The hole plays as a bit of a double dogleft, left then right, with a ravine 100 yards short. 

I got there with driver, 5 wood, 7 wood and was tickled pink.  Without the speed slot tee shot, it would no doubt be a par 6.  If you miss the downslope, it's probably more like a par 7 with the ravine lurking in 3rd shot layup range.

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