[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Its all good, understood the post was in jest, if you can't bust your buddies chops who can you right? 

The point I'm making is I don't care that Shivas made the post, or Tom Paul, or anyone else for that matter.  I felt it was a very compelling reason(s) as to why there really is no issue with a long putter. 

Cuz so far in this thread, I'm seeing mostly only really good reasons why a long putter works, and not much why its not.

So by all means lets list the reasons how it violates the spirit of the game.

1)  Its abnormal - Fine, lets ban Jim Furyk as well because his is very abnormal.  And while we're at it, throw me in there as well because god knowsI have a much worse swing than his.

Thats about all I can think of...pretty short list!   

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

I find that a club so much longer than what one normally uses for a particular part of this game is contrary to the spirit of the rules.  On top of that, the odd grip is contrary to such also.  It has little to do - for me - with the way the club is used - shivas has convinced me there, and in fact I never found that to be a problem - it has to do with what the club looks like.

To me that's enough to at the very least keep this issue open, as shivas did not address this at all.

TH

[Peter Pallotta]

Shivas -

it was interesting to watch you refining your thoughts (via edits) on post #81. Good post. But something just doesn't feel right - and that is, while golf may always have been, in part, a game of judgement, it's also been a game of soft hands and good feel and nice touch and a combination of power and finesse when it came to ball striking and/or putting.  I'll grant you that there have been a lot of funky swings and a lot of funky bits of  equipment over the years, but unless I'm mistaken all of those clubs and swings had one thing in common, i.e. the only thing touching the club were those soft hands with the good feel and nice touch. The spirit of the game has always recognized that it wasn't enough to be able to hammer a ball 250 yards; you also had to putt out a tricky and nerve-wracking downhill 2-footer, and that it 'counted' just as much as the drive.  Holding onto that putter with just one's hands was part of the test, traditionally.

No?

Peter 

[Mike Benham]

The center-shafted offset putter.

Don't forget the Ping inspired cavity back perimeter weighted putter ... I think the USGA/R&A screwed up by allowing the putter to be different, in the neck, hosel area, then the other clubs ...

[Peter Pallotta]

Shivas - I was editing my post as you were posting your response. Does it change your pov at all?

Peter

[Kalen Braley]

How many here haven't a lie up against a tree or fence and had to play a left handed shot with the club turned upside down?

Or had a ball so far above your feet in an awkward stance that you had to grip the club way down on the shaft and have the grip of your club nestled up against your arm?

Hell one of the coolest instructional tips I ever saw was chi-chi Rodrigues blasting a ball out of a bunker with the toe of his putter to combat horrifically buried lies.

I would think this all fits in with the spirt of the adventure of the game, to improvise and make up shots to find a way to get it done.  Putting balls from 100 yards off the green.  Hitting 120 yard 4 irons into a crazy headwind.  I put all this stuff in the same category right along with the long putter....just another way to get it done without resorting to a foot wedge.

In what even remotely possible way does any of this violate the spirit of the game? 

If we want to talk about a club that revolutionzed the game, lets talk about the sand recovery iron.  Its my understanding that created quite the uproar when it came out and people cried foul.  I guess for all of us to avoid being hypocrites we must immediately turn in our sand and lob wedges. 

[JWinick]

Shivas,

The long putter looks gay.   That's the single biggest argument against it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sure I did.

The sand wedge.

Let me add the metal wood.

Let me add cavity backs.

The center-shafted offset putter.

You just have length issues.

Can't say I blame you.  You're Irish.   

Now that was classic and I have to get you up to A-.

However... length is just the only issue I had time to address in my post to Kalen before I ran off to a meeting.

What about these:

a) greater ease for pendulum stroke due to length and construction - is this an unfair advantage and/or unnatural?  And be careful, remember how you trumpet how effective these things are....

b) The long putter looks gayer than gay.  Well said JW.

I'm sure there are others but I now have to hit the road.

But in summation... heck bottom line is I don't really think these are contrary to the rules nor the spirit of the game, personally.  I just also don't believe it's a fully closed issue.  Many wise people do find them contrary to the spirit, for many reasons, and their voices are equal to that of shivas.  My main take here is not to argue this issue - hell I feel sorry for the users of these Gayrods and like to play against them as it wins me money, so I hope they do remain legal - but rather to cut off this unearned shivas' praise at the pass.  He doesn't deserve it, outside of for that last great post directed to me.

 

[Peter Pallotta]

Kalen - you can't stick a putter in your gut and act like a grandfather clock and say that it has any parallel whatsoever to any other club or type of swing the game has ever known (or if known, not mocked mercilessly). Not that this MEANS anything - for me, the spirit of the game is one thing (and personal) while the rules of the game are another (public).

Tom H - what you said in your last post. I check into these threads mostly on the off chance that Shivas hits a home run or throws a knock-out punch. On the other hand, I know when he's on the ropes, cause he starts 

Peter
  

[Jeff Fortson]

See, here's the thing:

There are lots of ways to make a stroke under the rules of golf that don't constitute what most of us would consider a normal stroke.


I mentioned putting the club behind your back and swinging with the butt end of the club lodged between your butt cheeks.

Nothing illegal about that.

Impossible.  Never happened and won't ever be used by anyone for more than a one-time joke.

You can chop a ball lefty backwards from up against a tree.

Nothing illegal about that.

True.  But it's not anchored by the butt end against your body.

You can even anchor a club against your arm or chest and try to hit a driver one-handed if you want.

Nothing illegal about that.

Never have I seen this.  It doesn't wok and no one will ever resort to hitting a driver in this manner unless they are an amputee or paralyzed.  I would argue that it would be found to be more effective to swing the club one-handed anyway by those only using one arm.

There's nothing illegal about putting your arm way down the shaft of a wedge and chipping Bernard Langer-style the way he used to affix the putter against his left arm with his right hand.

True.  But the whole club still swings.  The butt of the grip stays anchored against the chin or chest of those using a long putter.  This isn't true for the Langer type stroke.

Hell, you can even try to do that with a driver if you're so inclined.

You could but no one would ever do it unless chipping from a closely mown area.  Show me one golfer who hits their driver like this.

A gymnast could do a handstand, bending over backwards, picking up the club and lodging it between her toes, and making the stroke with her feet.

Ridiculous, but true again.  Never would this be used.  It's impossible.  You know it, I know it, and anyone with a sane mind knows it.

In fact, there's nothing illegal about literally letting go of the club in the downdwing just before impact, in essence, throwing the clubhead at the ball!

Once again true but would maybe happen once in a lifetime by 1 out of 1,000,000 people.  You can't be serious.  If this was found to be the new revolution in swinging it would probably be banned by the governing bodies of golf as it seems quite dangerous.

Each of these is a legal stroke. 

In theory.  Fortunately, no one does them sans the Langer-style putting motion of the past which, I find completely legal as it used a reasonable length putter in its application.  Also, the butt end is not anchored to the body.

So what I don't get is why all the relatively-recent hullabaloo in the last decade about anchoring the clubhead against the chest or chin when putting?

Because it works and it is the most unnatural stroke in comparison to what people have done for at least 150 years in regards to putting.  It uses a piece of equipment that is @ 150% longer than it's counterpart.  No other club has ever been allowed to be lengthened by that margin and the putter is the only club that could work by doing so.  It is a very large departure from what has been the norm for nearly the entire known history of the game.  It resembles no other stroke in the history of golf.

You can do that any time you want to through the green with any club in the bag. 

It doesn't work with other clubs in any realistic or applicable way.

Moreover, it's not the only wierd stoke that doesn't strike most people as a customary stroke.

Weird isn't the argument here.  It is completely inconsistent with a traditional stroke of any kind.  It is the only club used to anchor the butt end of the club to the body.

Next time you're up against a tree, thinking about hitting a lefty, one handed backhanded through your legs shot off one knee (because that's the only shot you've got) to get the ball back in the fairway, consider whether it satisfies your sensibilities as a traditional stroke...

It's traditional in the sense that it is a proper play sometimes but never used as a common stroke.  It is also swung free of being anchored to the body.

Jeff F.

[Michael Powers]

You can bury me with my 46 1/4 inch Big Sur.  By the way, I'm still looking for a back up......any of you guys have one laying around?

[Jeff Fortson]

This is from the Rules of Golf Equipment in the the USGA Rule book...


Appendix II, 1a goes on to state that:

    The club must not be substantially different from the traditionally and customary form and make. The club must be composed of a shaft and a head. All parts must be fixed so that the club is one unit, and it must have no external attachments except as otherwise permitted by the Rules.
In explaining this part of the Rule, it is easier to divide into the following four sections:

(i) Traditional and Customary Form and Make.

The phrase “traditional and customary form and make” does not mean that clubs must look the same as they did 100 years ago. If so, steel shafts and metal woodheads would not conform to the Rules. As noted in the introduction to this guide, it is not the purpose of the Rules to stifle innovation.

In practice, the “Traditional and Customary Rule” is rarely used — having been largely superseded by the “Plain in Shape” Rule (see Design of Clubs, Section 4b). However, it is still applied in those cases where the Equipment Standards Committee decides that a particular design deviates from traditional appearance and/or construction standards, but which may not be covered by a more specific provision within the Rules.

You can read this so many ways.  I think I could argue that a long-putter could be banned under these words.  However, getting into a debate on the written word with a lawyer is a tricky task.  Let me think about whether or no I want to go down it.


Jeff F.

[Jeff Fortson]

You don't.   

And here's why:  elsewhere in the rules, they speak to length of clubs.  This means that the USGA is capable of prescribing length limits.  They did it elsewhere.  Had they intended for form and make to include length, they certainly could have said so here.  They did not.  Thus, the intent of this section was not to limit size. 

They DO limit the length of clubs... except the putter.  Why?  Explain.  Why should this not be revised?  Putters could be 10 feet tall.  Does this seem logical?  If we ever play I am going to make a putter that is 10 feet tall and I will use my foot to swing it. 


Jeff F.

[CHrisB]

Jeff,
If you do ever play a match against Shivas, here's my advice:

1. Play nice and slow, preferably with a complex but repeatable pre-shot routine.
2. Use you rangefinder to get your (and his) distances to the pin and all other important landmarks.
3. Use a bright red or yellow putter cover and leave it somewhere on the green while you putt.
4. Make sure your pre-putt routine involves meticulously aligning your cheater line to help you aim.
5. Before holing out, make a snide remark about people who use long putters.
6. Occasionally mix in a Caddyshack line, but intentionally mess up at least one of the words.
7. Ask him if the two of you are playing "golf" (small g) or "Golf" (large G).
8. By him a bratwurst at the turn.

9 & 8.

(Please mail me half your winnings.)

[JWinick]

So, admit that you are slightly embarassed by using a long putter.  I know you can make some things look good, but I don't know if you have it in you to make the long putter look good.

Chris, you know me waaayyyy too well.....

Well done!

But you forgot to tell him to bring his camera and snap a bunch of pictures during the round....from his cart. 

 

[JWinick]

I think Rodney looks better with his putter than you do with your long putter.   Of course, was Rodney's putter a long putter too??? 

[Jim Franklin]

Jeff,
If you do ever play a match against Shivas, here's my advice:

1. Play nice and slow, preferably with a complex but repeatable pre-shot routine.
2. Use you rangefinder to get your (and his) distances to the pin and all other important landmarks.
3. Use a bright red or yellow putter cover and leave it somewhere on the green while you putt.
4. Make sure your pre-putt routine involves meticulously aligning your cheater line to help you aim.
5. Before holing out, make a snide remark about people who use long putters.
6. Occasionally mix in a Caddyshack line, but intentionally mess up at least one of the words.
7. Ask him if the two of you are playing "golf" (small g) or "Golf" (large G).
8. By him a bratwurst at the turn.

9 & 8.

(Please mail me half your winnings.)

Mastercard moment - Priceless

[Jeff Fortson]

Jeff,
If you do ever play a match against Shivas, here's my advice:

1. Play nice and slow, preferably with a complex but repeatable pre-shot routine.
2. Use you rangefinder to get your (and his) distances to the pin and all other important landmarks.
3. Use a bright red or yellow putter cover and leave it somewhere on the green while you putt.
4. Make sure your pre-putt routine involves meticulously aligning your cheater line to help you aim.
5. Before holing out, make a snide remark about people who use long putters.
6. Occasionally mix in a Caddyshack line, but intentionally mess up at least one of the words.
7. Ask him if the two of you are playing "golf" (small g) or "Golf" (large G).
8. By him a bratwurst at the turn.

9 & 8.

(Please mail me half your winnings.)

Mastercard moment - Priceless

Agreed.  That is priceless advice!


Jeff F.

[Michael Powers]

Hey Shivas,
Any time your in Mass and you want to take me and my gayrod on, just let me know.

[Dan Herrmann]

Well. Adam Scott leads the Open using a long putter.   

Please ruling authorities - ban the damn things.   They remind me of the crap you see in bowling alleys these days.  Allow them and you may as well abdicate because this could ruin our game. 

What is next?  Gloves that keep your wrists in the proper position?   

Please.  Kill the damn things.

[JSlonis]

Well. Adam Scott leads the Open using a long putter.   

Please ruling authorities - ban the damn things.   They remind me of the crap you see in bowling alleys these days.  Allow them and you may as well abdicate because this could ruin our game. 

What is next?  Gloves that keep your wrists in the proper position?   

Please.  Kill the damn things.

How will this ruin the game exactly?

Yes, I use a long putter but I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jamie,

I now use a long putter, had I done so 15 years ago you would have read about me 

However, I think the belly and long putter should be banned, or, affixing the putter to your body should be banned.

I'm more of a traditionalist and want to keep golf from looking like Croquette

[Michael Whitaker]

You should not be able to anchor a club against your body. I don't care what length putter someone uses, but anchoring a club during the act of striking the ball should be illegal.

[C. Squier]

A long putter is just admitting you're a bad putter.  But the line gets crossed when it's used to get relief or penalty drops.

It's one thing to tell the field you're terrified of five footers, but have some self respect and use your driver to take a drop.

[Jason Walker]

Im a new long putter convert (thanks Jamie!), but no part of the club touches any part of my body other than my hands when I make a stroke.  The back of my left hand near my thumb joint touches near my sternum.  Is this considered "anchoring" the same as a belly butter?

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