Best Hole Discussion

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Around the turn of the century Golf Illustrated attempted to identify the very best par-3, par-4 and par-5 by polling the best golf minds at the time. Some of the results:

John Low - 11th St.Andrews, 16th St.Andrews, 14th St.Andrews

Horace Hutchinson - 11th St.A, 9th Brancaster, 5th St.A.

Herbert Fowler - 11th St.A., 5th Westward Ho!, 17th St.Andrews

Willie Park, Jr. - Redan, Alps-Prestwick, 2nd Musselburgh

Pretty diverse opinions. What are the best holes today?

[A_Clay_Man]

The eighth at Pebble comes immediatly to mind for the Par 4. The par 3 is probably one I haven't played, yet, but of those I have, I'd say it was the one at Shoreacres on the backnine, perhaps 13?

 Fuhget about picking the par 5, this would be a very tough decision and will be very diverse in everyones opinion. For me, it's Hells Gate #8 at BWR or the first at Spyglass or the 14th at Spanish or the 6th and 18th at Pebble or last at SFGC or....

 

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

I wonder when the 5th at Westward Ho! was a par 4? It's currently a shortish par 3. (I'm assuming the 17th at St A is a par 5 in Fowler's selctions)

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Paul
Ironically Fowler redesigned the course a few years later. The 5th is now the forth - the Cape.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

And the 17th at St.Andrews was a par-5 and damn hard one.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I'll give it a shot, hoping not to sound too cliched.

Par 3 - 11 Old Course
Par 4 - 17 Old Course
Par 5 - 1 Sand Hills

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

#6   or # 4   NGLA  par 3
#8              NGLA  par 4
#18            NGLA  par 5

[Brian Phillips]

Mike,

Sorry, to change the subject a bit but do you think that the 1st at Sand Hills is one of the best opening holes in the world not just as a Par 5.  It has so many options.

Brian

[Ran Morrissett]

I always find the lack of Donald Ross holes on such lists as interesting  - meanwhile, MacKenzie lobs in with 4-6 at RM West and who would argue that they aren't as fine a 5-3-4 pars as it gets?

[Dave_Miller]

Ran:
Some suggestions on Donald Ross:

Par 3 - No 8 - Aronimink; No. 11 - Charles River; No 6 BraeBurn
Par 4 - No 11 - Aronimink; No 8 - Charles River;No 18 BraeBurn
Par 5 - No 9 - Aronimink; No 16 - Charles River;No10 BraeBurn
I'm sure there a million others but these are a few I find challenging, interesting and demanding.
Cheers,
Dave

[Mike_Cirba]

Brian,

Yes, on the recent thread on opening holes I stated that the first at NGLA, Merion, and Pine Valley had been my favorite starting holes.

Sand Hills' opener is better, par five or not, in my opinion.

[Paul_Turner]

Par 3: Royal Worlington 5th
Par4: Royal Portrush 5th
Par5: Royal West Norfolk(Brancaster) 8th

[Ran Morrissett]

Dave,

Ross built a ton of very fine holes - perhaps more than any architect - but are you saying that the 16th at Charles River might be the best par five in the world as per the subject of this post

I find it interesting that people like Crump and Wilson and Fownes perhaps built as many world class holes as Ross. The fact that those three men are associated with so few courses makes the statement seem impossible at first but at the same time, perhaps it explains it as well.

Cheers,

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ran
I stumbled across Bobby Jones' ideal 18 from 1936 and he didn't include any Ross holes either.

[Will E]

Didn't Ben Hogan consider 6 at Seminole the finest par 4 on the planet?
Tom,
could you post Jones' ideal list? I consider Bobby Jones and Hogan two of the most intelligent golfers of all time.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom, When did Jones publish that list - after he had seen MacKenzie's work or before? Certainly his list might indicate why Ross never did ANGC.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

After gathering all the opinions the consensus was the 11th at St.Andrews, followed by the Redan and the Maiden and Hades at Sandwich, the two shot Alps at Prestwick, and the three shot 14th at St.Andrews edging out the 14th at Sandwich.

[CB]

Par 5--I don't see how anyone could build a better par 5 than #14 at St. Andrews.  So many options, and you can't ever relax from anywhere on the hole.
Par 4--#17 at St. Andrews; enough has been said about this hole.
Par 3--Harder to choose because it is a single shot; how to compare totally different shots like #16 at Cypress Point and the Postage Stamp, #8 at Royal Troon?  Personally, I think the ultimate par 3 should be playable for all abilities and really test player's control in all conditions; I like the fact that a 20-handicapper can make a 2 at the Postage Stamp and a touring pro can make a 7, so #8 at Troon is my choice.

[Dave_Miller]

Ran:  
In no way am I suggesting that Nop.16 at CRCC is the best Par 5 in the World.
Your Post indicated the lack of Donald Ross holes in these discussions.  
For the sake of discussion I simply put up a few that I get to play frequently and have respect for.  Holes that are fun, demanding, challenging and rewarding. Holes that might get others to think about Donald Ross in this discussion.  Hey, I know No.16 is not the best Par 5 in the world.
But it is still a great hole designed by a great master.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

The consensus of that elite group:

Par-3 The Eden at St.Andrews. Followed by the Redan and the Maiden and Hades at Sandwich.

Par-4 The Alps at Prestwick.

Par-5 14th at St.Andrews edging the 14th at Sandwich.

[ted janeczek]

par3 - #11 at shinnecock; par4- #11 at ballybunion: par 5 - #7 at baltimore cc, 5 farms

[Joel_Stewart]

A number of years ago either Golf Magazine or Golf Digest did an article on the best holes.  The results were,

Par 3 - 16th at Cypress Point
Par 4 - 8th at Pebble Beach
Par 5 - Can't remember?

My favorites are
Par 3 - 5th at Pine Valley
Par 4 - 2nd at Pine Valley
Par 5 - Can't decide

[MK]

True Shotmaker Holes that are overlooked:


4th Hole at Olympic: 438 Yards, You need to hit the perfect draw just to keep it on the fairway, and then a sidehill approach shot of 200+ yards to a undulating green. Perfect example of Golf minimalism.

3rd Hole at Riviera: 435 Yards, Need a beautiful power fade to the downhill fairway, and you need a spinner to hold the green that runs away.

10th Hole at Riviera: 315 Yards, Testiment that a great hole doesn't need to be a long one. 5 Ways to play it, and you need the correct spin to hold that sliver of a green.

[Roger Fleet]

I would find it very hard to pick just three "best holes", and nearly all my picks, from what I have played around the world, would be in Ireland.

Obviously I would pick the 11th in Ballybunion - amazing. You expect to see a well struck shot barreling down the fairway. Instead, it lands in a kind of hollow miles from the green. The next shot is a real treat.

For a par 3, I would pick the 15th (??) in Portmarnock. Thrilling.

And for a par 5, maybe the 18th in Carne Golf Links. If you don't hit your shots in the right place, you'll find yourself in all kinds of trouble.

[Brian_Belden]

I'll throw in my two cents:

par 3 - 5th Pine Valley
par 4 - 14th Shinnecock Hills; 6th Seminole
par 5 - 16th Shinnecock Hills