[Mike_Cirba]

...but I have sinned.


Well...it had to happen eventually.

Redanman (aka BillV) and I have been simpatico on almost all of our course assessments over the years.   Like clockwork, we would find out that one or the other had played a course and providing each other with "blind" assessments, would end up very close in terms of the way we each saw things.

Last year, I started a thread on changes to the Saucon Valley Old course, by that famed defamer and destroyer of classic golf courses, Tom Fazio.   I hadn't been there to see what he had done, but from the tone of a new article, I started a thread castigating how he was about to castrate what was left of one of the few Herbert Strong designs on the planet, with some good Perry Maxwell thrown in for good measure.   redanman had played the course and chimed into the thread with a list of reasons he thought the course wasn't much at all, and I figured that my sight unseen criticism was likely right on target.

For those of you with Search engine talent, it was called something like "Saucon Valley Old is New again", or some other pretentious nonsense..

In any case, I finally got to play Saucon Valley Old this week after only walking it twice before during the two previous Senior Opens there.

I loved it.   

I think it's terrific, and what's more, I think the changes/restorations/revisions done by the Fazio group were mostly very positive, and from a tournament course perspective, were well thought out while still being very playable (and stategic) for all other levels of players.

I even think the crashing wave theme of the deep, blinding-white and bunkers is vastly superior to the dull, repetitious ovals of the Gordon bunkers that preceded it.

I will try to go into more of the reasons I really enjoyed this course tomorrow, but for now let me just repeat the blasphemy...

...Tom Fazio renovated Saucon Valley Old, and the combination of the original design attributes and the polish of the new enhancements make for a much better golf course.

Fire when ready.   

[David Stamm]

Fire when ready.   

READY! AIM!.........

[Thomas MacWood]

How familar are you with the original Herbert Strong design? It was a wild one, and didn't last too long.

[Joel_Stewart]

I too share your plight.   A few years ago I attended a conference where he was there and thought he was condesending in his remarks to the group.   Everyone was talking with him over a 3 day period but I refused based on some of his work.

A few weeks ago I was invited to attend the opening of a new course and the PR person asked if I would like to have a 30 minute 1 on 1 with him.  I agreed but was leary.  To make a long story short he could not have been nicer and we hit it off.  We talked about so many courses I could write a book and I had the most enjoyable time.

I then played his new course and thought it was his best work that I had played.  

[Thomas MacWood]

I too share your plight.   A few years ago I attended a conference where he was there and thought he was condesending in his remarks to the group.   Everyone was talking with him over a 3 day period but I refused based on some of his work.

A few weeks ago I was invited to attend the opening of a new course and the PR person asked if I would like to have a 30 minute 1 on 1 with him.  I agreed but was leary.  To make a long story short he could not have been nicer and we hit it off.  We talked about so many courses I could write a book and I had the most enjoyable time.

I then played his new course and thought it was his best work that I had played.  

Joel
What changes did Fazio make to the course? What did you think of the course pre-Fazio?

[TEPaul]

edit

[Brad Klein]

Tom Fazio is one of the nicest guys to talk to about architecture; he's thoughtful, opinionated and not afraid to say what he thinks and to promote all aspects of the modern design approach.

He'd make a great GCA interview. In an era when some folks revert to media cliches and self-serving fluff or political correctness, he at least takes and defends a strong position.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike C,

You recently mentioned that you liked Galloway (over ACCC and Hidden Creek) without much detail. More detail please!

[Kyle Harris]

Fire when ready.   

READY! AIM!.........

On this board, it's really more of a "READY! FIRE! AIM!"

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel
What changes did Fazio make to the course? What did you think of the course pre-Fazio?

It was a new course, Martis Camp in Lake Tahoe.

[Thomas MacWood]

My mistake.

[TEPaul]

"Quote from: Tom MacWood on Yesterday at 10:38:20 pm


Joel
What changes did Fazio make to the course? What did you think of the course pre-Fazio?


It was a new course, Martis Camp in Lake Tahoe."



Joel:

Are you sure the course isn't a Tom Fazio redesign of a Willie Campbell gem?

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...let me expand a bit on my thoughts and answer some questions.

Tom MacWood,

The most I've seen is an aerial of the course from the 1930's, before Perry Maxwell came along and added today's 11th and 12th holes (play usually as 17 & 18 in tournaments).  

How much of Herbert Strong's original design was still in play then is not something I fully know, but I can tell you that the course had strong bunkering (no pun intended), including some crossing (Sahara) type features, as well as staggered patterns to the fairway bunkering.  

Comparing that photo to a post-Fazio aerial I can tell you that it is not what either of us would call a "restoration", but it does seem to be much in the spirit and intent of what was there in the 1930s from a placement and strategy standpoint, and the consistent look and feel they provided to the bunkering is certainly an improvement on what was there prior, with a seeming mismash of different shapes, sizes, styles, and a lot of Gordon type ovals still evident on the other courses (see the recent pics of Weyhill on another thread) at Saucon Valley.

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike:

It is too simplistic to bash something just because TF did work on the course, or for that matter, was the architect.  TF's position is to give the client what he wants and do the best job he can satisfying those requirements.  I really can't say that there is anything wrong with that - we don't know how many times he had suggested other approaches to a project and his client said no.  We also don't know how many times other architects have turned down projects because of the clients' requirements.  He has made some very significant contributions to gca and I have enjoyed playing a number of his courses including Shadow Creek, Galloway, Primm, World Woods, etc.   So when you come across a restoration by TF which is thoughtful and makes the course more enjoyable to play, I don't believe it should necessarily be a surprise simply because you don't like some of his other restoration or renovation work. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Jerry,

You're right, but from my perspective, there was a track record that I was very critical of for reasons I'd defend again.   In the case of Merion, I thought the approach to the bunkering was way too mechanical, standardized, and ultimately left Merion with thick grassy faced bunkers that had no historical basis.   From a 2-dimensional overhead they look perfectly fine, but on the ground they are much different.   Deeper, too, which is a mixed blessing, as I imagine the older members struggling just from an access and egress standpoint.

At Riviera, there were more things I was critical of than I could count.   Just some awful shaping, some very pedestrian work, and clearly a philosophic approach contrary to the greatness of that course.   When they used the tagline, "welcome home George Thomas" it was beyond ironic.

At Pine Valley, the cleanup of the waste areas is way too structured and artificial looking.   I compared them to Zen Gardens, and I think they should have herds of elephants run through them.   I also believe that more work should be done with trees....instead, you have new ones planted on #7 to protect the new #9 back tee....a row of stiff arbor vitae no less.    Ugh.  The new back tee on 14 looks to be standing on stilts....

The pics I've seen of some new tees at Oakmont also suffered from that stick-out-like-a sore-thumb hyper-elevation. 

So, it wasn't without experience that I came by my perhaps overly negative expectations about Tom Fazio's work on classic courses.    It was pretty well earned.   

I also agree with you that he's done some very important original work, and I've been a real proponent here of much of it, such as Galloway, World Woods, and most controversially, Trump National..

I just call em like I see em.   

[Garland Bayley]

So Mike, you were criticizing what he would do without seeing it. Shame on you!

Pat Mucci would be appalled.

[Mike_Cirba]

In the case of SVO, one of the best things the Fazio group did was observe the Hippocratic Oath of not breaking anything.    They also didn't seem to fix anything that wasn't appropriate.

A few greens were slightly raised in front as they had become very unidimensional in terms of pin locations.   I don't like this any more than the rest of you, but with modern green speeds it's the bad medicine we're having to suck down. 

However the good news is that the greens themselves are really, really cool, with tons of widely varying internal countouring, as well as a considerable degree of slope on a number of them.   They were also extremely firm and blazing fast...almost to a fault.

As mentioned, the bunkers were completely redone, and they are now deep, sand flashed, and blinding, but they do play as hazards.   The old bunkers were pretty shallow and somewhat shapeless over time.   The new ones definitely get your attention, and play with a degree of difficulty that factors highly into strategic choices.

A couple of back tees that were added still sometimes look like abandoned children 70 yards to the rear, but at least they are close to flush-ground-level and don't obtrude (is that a word?) on the overall landscape.    They also allow the course to be stretched to over 7100 yards, par 71, which is still not ghastly or overdone if one thinks about 7700 yard Torrey Pines, et.al.

[mike_malone]

 Mike,

   I think you underestimate the joy that comes from a short drive to play a course. That probably accounts for most of your enthusiasm

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike: We gca enthusiasts have the opportunity to sometimes play some very exceptional courses including those you mentioned, (I have not played them) and come away thinking that the work done was subpar.  Obviously, you feel that way with respect to at least 3 renovations done by TF.  I have to believe that plans were drawn up and suggestions made to the client and there was some give and take before the actual work was begun.  Was TF given total authority to do as he pleased and what we see was all his doing - I cannot believe that is the case.  Perhaps he felt strongly that the proposals were not a good idea and when his suggestions were rejected, in your mind, he should have walked away from the project.  It may be that you disagree with his business practices as opposed to his work on golf courses.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I believe Saucon has Herbert Strong plans in their archives but Saucon is only about 40 miles from Philly, therefore it's within the "Philadedlphia Syndrome" zone.

I don't want those two "expert" researchers pulling another Merion and Myopia on Saucon Valley and so I've confiscated the key to Saucon's archives. As an Associate Member in good standing of the "Philadelphia Syndrome", I will allow you to take a quick peek at them but if you divulge anything on here the Philly Syndrome security force will remove your 64 degree wedge from your bag for starters and after that it could get really messy.

Savy?

[Mike_Cirba]

SVO features some really tremedous variety and design balance.    As mentioned, it is now over 7100 yards from the back tees, par 71.   

Yet, even from the tips there are three really good short par fours of 368, 338, and 345 yards.   The par threes run from 159 to 215.     The par fives run from the reachable in two 558 yard first to the 615 yard 15th.   

There are now some very difficult lengthy par fours, including four between 450 and 496 yards.   

Forced carries are kept to a minimum and the longest carry is perhaps 100 yards from the tee on 18 over a pond.    Most other carries are over the lovely Saucon Creek, which is aobut 30 yards across.   

Almost all of the greens permit the run up shot.   Fairways are reasonably wide and trees only affect really very offline shots.   In fact, it's probably one of the most wide-open courses of that vintage in the Philadelphia region

Almost every hole...heck..almost every shot can be played either aggressively or conservatively.  One can "tack" their way around the offsets of the bunkers, or try to play close to them for preferred angles or advantage of distance.   

I found very little wrong, a lot right, and left wondering why the cache of this course isn't higher.    It is certainly one of the best tournament courses in the state, at minimum, and I predict it will really shine during the US Women's Open next year.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - this is maybe the wrong thread for it, but I always meant to ask. I think I got to the site after a period of Fazio-bashing, and so I wondered what the bashing I've only heard about second-hand is actually about. I can understand the "Aestethics" angle (which is important and which I think encompasses far more than just the look of a place, including a subtle sense of the ethos of the game), but what else? Should I be surprised that Fazio understands options and strategies and playablity and fun? Never played anything by him, so a honest question
Thanks

Peter

[Bill Brightly]

The most obvious changes were the re-building of every bunker and the addition of about 6 new black tees. But I think there were two great changes that Fazio made that are overlooked.

The par 4 10th and par 3 14th holes (#11 and  #16 in the PA AM and Women's Open) Fazio re-built the greens. Prior to the work, theses greens had so much tilt that there were very few pinnable locations given today's green speeds. The greens are still REALLY tough to putt with severe back-to-front tilts, but they are fair and play to the original design intent.

[David Stamm]

I think the Fazio bashing is becuase of his handling of the classic courses and not so much his own original designs. IMHO, as it relates to the former, in many cases the bashing is justified.

[Jason Topp]

This thread has all the discussion you could want:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,6377.0.html

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