Terrible Course Warning

[A_Clay_Man]

Patrick- How is the over growth of cattails make for a bad design?

While the hole looks great without the growth and the green is completely visable, I always thought it a shame to cut down the reeds and cattails.

The blindness of the green made for certain uncertainty and was therefore, pretty cool, and kind of unique to golf on the peninsula.

Also, I don't recall being able to see much of the putting surface on 15 at CPC.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A clayman,

Let me try to provide an example.

Lets say you fade the ball, and the pin is three paces from the left side water hazard.  At the tee, the cattails blocked everything, you had no frame of reference.  That pin could have been in the middle or far right and you couldn't tell that.
So, it's far left, you always hit a fade, so where are you going to aim, not knowing anything but the pin location.

Answer, unknowingly into the water, left of the pin.  
Now, you hit a good iron, you fade it, but not quite enough, and you're in the water.  
Bad, Bad, Bad hole !

While you might not be able to see all of the putting surface at # 15 at CPC you can see enough of the surrounding area to know where to hit your tee shot, or where not to hit your tee shot.  
No such signals existed at the above hole at Spanish Bay, making it a bad hole.

[A_Clay_Man]

First off Patrick, There's plenty more than three paces from the waters edge to the left edge of that green. So your analogy doesn't fit to this specific example. Besides that green is hugely wide but not that deep. I have seen many more par 3's where the water is much closer to the green.

So, I still wonder why cutting down the reeds made it better? Better for the average golfer, I can see that because it seems so many of todays mediocre designs are geared to the masses.

But,To me it is still the same hole, just much more intimatadting with the long natural grasses obscuring the putting surface.

 And there is a special feeling standing on that tee (probably cause it faces Mecca(CPC)) with the ocean right, the waves crashing, the wind howling and the dunes in the background, it is an outstanding place to be standing with a golf club in your hand.

Not to mention a tough par.

[SPDB]

Mike/Pat/A Clay Man -

14 at The Creek sounds a lot like the hole you are describing at CC of The Poconos. It doesn't neccessarily block the view of the distant green, but it does block the view of everything else (including the fairway you are required to hit.

I love it.

What do you think of it Pat?

[JakaB]

Patrick,

Your theory on this topic worries me...you seem to indicate that the first time player of a course should suffer no disadvantage to the member.   Are you saying that surprises are bad, bad, bad....Are you saying that horizon targets are bad, bad, bad....Are you saying that every person that fades the ball should be able to aim left of the hole and not be penalized for hitting a straight shot...or are you just saying that maintenance and clear targets are king.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sean,

Does the hole at the Creek require a 140-yd layup from the tee, prior to 190 yards wall to wall carry over the cattails?  

I'm not really opposed to the blindness as much as the obvious routing faux pas.  This on a course that traverses 13 miles to find golf holes!!  

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I see you talking about the neeed for "a frame of reference" in a post from yesterday on some hole that's apparenly blind but for the pin.

Does the lack of a "frame of reference" disturb you because of the danger of the water on that hole or does a lack of a "frame of reference" just disturb you period.

If the lack of a "frame of reference" generally disturbs you I would have to ask you what you feel about the approach to #16 NGLA if you happen to hit your drive into one of the fairway bowls?

Would you rationalize that's OK because you've hit a drive that wasn't optimal or the correct one? I'd like to know because the best frame of reference you're going to get for your approach from either bowl (particularly the right one) is a passing cloud if there happens to be one!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Since you're not familiar with the hole we are talking about at Spanish Bay, let me try to put it into the context of the 16th at NGLA that you reference.

It would be akin to having your vision on the tee shot totally blocked by cattails, with only the top of a tall flag visible, and the bowls you speak of at NGLA...... are PONDS.  
Now, what do you think of the hole and the lack of visibility ?

JakaB,

It's not that a member has that much of an advantage.  
Let me try to re-visualize the hole for you.

Take the 17th at TPC, grow tall cattails in front of the tee so that only the flag on the pin is visible.  
Now, what do you think of the hole ?
Care to play that hole day in and day out ?
You don't have enough ammo  

AClayman,

The hole with the cattails is indefensible, it's terrible.
There is water in front and on both sides, and only the flag on the pin is visible from the tee.  You have no idea of where to hit your shot, except right at the pin, with no idea on the margins for error.  The slightest error causes,

1.  A lost ball ?
2.  A ball in the Hazard, but where did it enter ?
3.  Reload and do it again ?

It is a horrid hole with the cattails blocking everything.

With what amounts to an island green, there should be some indication of where land begins and ends, some frame of reference.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I have hit my ball many many times left of left on that hole and rarely(as in never) has it gone in the water. The shape of the hazard is almost like a boomerang with the water only coming into play at the very front center(ok, leftish center) and bare;y extends past the front of the green some twenty feet left of the greens edge.

When I do hit a bad shot, I take a drop in the drop area. which is located to the right of the green.

 Whats unfair (bad) about that?

But again I ask you about your original comment that the design was flawed due to the reeds. But without them it's not so bad. or,
Did you just mean to say, that the proper Maintenace Meld requires a closely cropped pond?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A clayman,

The fact that there is a drop area is an indication that an inadequacy exists in the design.

Without the tall reeds it's an okay hole.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Cirba:

You're right on target regarding CC of the Poconos -- Mike, it's my experiemce that any facility with a long name for its title is usually a major dud as a golf course. I often think that the mktg / pr types get involved with the naming because they believe that if you call a dingy an ocean liner long enough people will believe it.

In fact, I'd go as far to say that much of the golf in the Poconos is really a major dud. You have more quirk holes per square mile there than most other locations in the USA.

If you took an area from north of I-80 and East of I-81 in PA the only superior layout among public courses in the area is Great Bear. The rest -- i.e. Woodloch Springs, Shawnee, Stone Hedge are clearly decent, but then when you get into the heart of Pocono country you reach epic proportions on sorry golf.

It's really hard to believe because the terrain could produce some excellent golf.

I also agree that much of Ocean City, MD is also just a tourist trap looking to emulate Myrtle Beach and capture vaca money from dads looking for a break from all the family rituals.
Minus 2 or 3 courses the area is just a bleak version of the same flat as pancake courses with little real imagination among the bunch.

Of course -- the major league granddaddy of them all is the Grand Strand. Until the last several years the basic motif of Myrtle Beach followed the same lines as buffet eating -- just serve'm more of the hash and because the price is low enough they'll eat it. At of 100+ plus courses in the immediate area from Brunswick County (NC) all the way to Georgetown (SC) I can't say there are more than 12-15 courses worth the time and effort.

In my own backyard are two woeful attempts by Bergen and Essex Counties (NJ) to handle public golf. The result? Both do such a low level effort that it really is shocking given the amount of golfers in both locales. Golf Digest even cited Bergen County as one of the worst places to play golf from the public side of the equation.

[Adam_Messix]

Mike,

You are so right about the 1st hole at CRY & CC.....
It's just a real brain teaser in my mind especially considering the next two holes coming up.  

I've been told they are still keeping the course really firm and fast which as you know really appeals to me.  

I'll be up there again in the fall, we'll have to get up a game together.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I see what you mean about the reeds or cattails. They can be cut down though, so if the architecture is OK no big deal I guess.

When you talk about blind from the tee shot I'm no fan of tees that are too long for downhill shots and all you can see is the end of the tee. That to me is sort of thoughtless tee architecture. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of that. You however probably haven't seen quite as much as me since you're taller!

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

Now you're hitting close to my heart, as I grew up just north of the Poconos and it's where I developed my love for quirky holes.  

However, I have to regretfully agree with you completely.  Having had a bit more experience in subsequent years playing a few decent courses, it sad to see how woeful many of these courses are in entirety.  Yes, here and there are holes full of fun, quirk, and golfing interest, but they are usually the exception.  I would say that Woodloch Springs is one of the more thoughtful, if demanding courses in the area, and probably in the range of Great Bear in my mind.  It always kicks my butt, but I never lose interest.

I'm not 100% sure that the terrain is necessarily conducive to great golf.  It seems there is a lot of severe terrain, and perhaps when I see someone finally design a great course in the area I'll be convinced.  As it stands right now, however, it seems the old architects who worked in the area were hampered by the lack of ability to move mountains, while modernists would probably produce lackluster efforts while attempting to flatten everything.  Hell, even Donald Ross produced Pocono Manor East up there, which fits the mold of a really poor overall course with a handful of fun, engaging holes.

Adam;

Great to hear that CR is still being maintainted firm, fast, and fun.  I'll look forward to getting together again.  By the way, if you'll still be in NC in mid September, shoot me an email as I'll be coming through the area on the way to Kiawah.  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

The problem with the Poconos is not the land -- other locales have had more demanding places to work (i.e. Rockies, Sierras, etc, etc.). The issue?

$$$$$$$

Few key golf developers see the Poconos as a place that will pay off. Just check out the ghost town (otherwise known as the Catskills) to see what I'm saying. Golf destinations are being built but virtually bypassed antique places such as the Poconos.

Mike, I'm firmly convinced that if $$$ was available and you did attract a few solid architects you could easily have a half a dozen first rate golf courses. Is there an interest? Is anyone promoting that feature?

Plenty of second homes are being built in the region (look at the success of Woodloch in Hawley and the surrounding areas) so that there is some interest but it seems that once people cross the Delaware the desire to build first rate golf hits a brickwall.

The development that takes place in Bucks County literally stops as you move north and get into the Lehigh Valley and points north.

Yes, when I grew up I also played plenty of golf in the Poconos (i.e. The Gap, Mount Airy, Fernwood, Edgewood, Taminent, Glenwood, to name just a few). The campy retro style of the Poconos is beyond quaint -- it's depressing.

Think of the territory I mentioned (east of I-81 and north of I-80) and the utter lack of first rate public golf minus those I previously mentioned. There is some really exciting possbilities there but golf development forces as they are constituted today are not going there and the same outcome that Sullivan County (NY) is facing is there to be seen in the Poconos. Too bad.

P.S. The view from #16 at CC Poconos is awesome on a clear day. I also hit a driver that carried all the mess and was within 20 yards of the green (never would do it in an tournament or anything else of consequence!!!).

[Mike_Cirba]

After reading this thread, and seeing the pics of the course in question, I absolutely HAD to go play the course by James Ganley in York, PA, called Hawk Lake Golf Club.

The course was built over the remains of a forgettable golf course called Yorktowne, on a fairly decent, if hilly property with few wetlands considerations.  The original course here maxed out at about 5600 yards, so there is not a whole lot of acreage.

To be honest, it was not a bad effort at all.  The routing is fairly basic, and the couple of times Ganley got himself into a corner, he managed to come out of it with some grace.  The green complexes were generally good, with a nice if unremarkable set of greens that offered more contour than many newer courses.  

Apart from a few holes where it might be preferable to play from an adjoining, parallel fairway, there was certainly nothing horrible out there on the scale of what those pictures indicated.

There were also a couple of really good, thoughtful holes, and I wouldn't run like hell in the other direction the next time someone tells me the architect is one Mr. Ganley...not that I'd seek another out, either.  I also don't recall seeing a cart path in play.    

I just thought it might be worth mentioning that the sins of "Bear Creek" may have as much to do with the site as the architect.