Terrible Course Warning

[Derek_Duncan]

From time to time there are posts in the DG about particularly horrid golf course designs, and either as a CGA service or to simply purge some venom from my veins I am going to add another to the list.

Perhaps Crosby has already mentioned it here before, but this one is just west of Atlanta called Bear Creek (I'd never heard of the architect before) and it is the worst design I could ever imagine having to endure.  It tips out at a modest 6,600 yards (where we played) and covers some extreme topography.  The course is intersected by numerous natural and man-made wetland areas that are employed in the most amateurish way possible.

Number two is a downhill 390-yard par four.  A wetland hazard starts at 180 yards off the tee and runs almost up to the green, so the tee shot can be no more than an 8 or 7-iron for most, and it's a blind drive at that.  Thus the second shot is a forced carry of 190 to 230 yards (though the hazard can be cleared with about a 150-yard shot).  Laying back to around 200 yards -- there is no getting around it.

The 14th is another 387-yard downhill hole bisected by a wetland.  A carry from the back tee of over 220-yards is needed to reach the second fairway, but there's really no layup option because 1) the hole is downhill enough that you would have to basically hit wedge to stay short of the hazard (this would result in a 200+ yard approach that also has to carry another hazard fronting the green), and 2) the "lay-up" area is so sloped and banked I'm not sure if you could even manufacture a shot.  I have no idea how high handicap players play this hole -- it's basically a three-shot par four for them.

The 18th, a 480-yard par 4 uphill, may be the worst yet!  From the back tees (where we were playing because it seemed like a reasonable 6,600 yards) drives must carry 240+! over wetlands.  Or you can lay back with a drive under 195 yards.  Even then you can't mash a 3-wood second shot because another wetlands divides the fairway 50-yards short of the green.  I'm a decent player but rarely carry my drives 240, especially on a wet day, so I played this beauty of a hole 5-iron, 7-iron, 7-iron.  

There were two or three other holes similar to this as well as numerous other features that would be laughed out of most respecting clubs (including cart paths that zigzag through fairways and cut into landing areas for drives - don't ask me how I noticed this).

There's no real point to this rant other than to warn ATL area visitors to stay away, because I've heard many people in the area praise this course.  It's an abomination.

[Brad Klein]

Owing to the subtle tone of your presentation I may be missing your point. Are you somehow intimating this is not a great golf course?

Could you also name the designer?

[Dave_Miller]

Derek:
Sounds like you are describing the course at Squaw Valley near Lake Tahoe.  A horrible example of a course built in and through all kinds of wetlands and other natural areas.  One of the least fun courses I've ever played although they were not bashful about charging for it.
Just try to keep in mind that "There are good courses and there may be bad courses but I still never met a course I didn't like."
Heck even playing these are better than working.

Fairways and Greens
Dave

[Craig Van Egmond]

Here's their website, no mention of the designer though. Some pictures of the holes are shown.


http://www.bearcreekatlanta.com/golfc.htm

[Scott_Burroughs]

Some terribly placed cart paths as well... At the end of the fairway before the wetlands, literally abutting the fairway all along the par 5, crossing in front of one par3, and in the landing area of a properly hit draw on the Redan-ish looking par 3.

[Mike_Cirba]

Perhaps it's imposible to tell anything from pictures, but sheesh!  

150 feet of elevation change seems like just the start of the problems here.    

[JohnV]

For $500 initiation fee and $130 a month what more could you ask for.  I wonder what they charge to get out of the membershiop?

[A_Clay_Man]

Personally , I can't wait for Pat Mucci's assesment. Since he probably has never played there but the pictures are enough, or so I read.

[Tim weiman]

Just a guess, but I suspect this course is a case of the developer trying to play architect, perhaps to save money.

The second hole looks like a text book example of why one shouldn't attempt such a thing.

[Keith Williams]

Okay, I am a little embarassed to admit this, but Bear Creek just happens to be in my home town of Douglasville, GA.

During construction it was heavily advertised and very much anticipated.  It started as a "golden bear" design (the division of Nicklaus design that Jack actually has nothing to do with) but even they knew to get out of such a bad site.  The course was finished by a local gentleman, I can't recall his name (it is on the scorecard).  He lives on the north side of ATL near Duluth and I would have never heard of him if it weren't for the fact that (total coincidence) my father bought a car from him once (that's a whole other story, though).

Needless to say, I and everybody else in Douglasville can attest to the poor quality of the course.  Once it became public knowledge how bad it was rumors started flying around about how the original designers had "accidentally" laid the course out backwards and now every tee is where a green was supposed to be and vice versa.  Basically just talk to account for the horrid course.

Now that everybody in ATL knows how bad of a course it is they can't even sell any houses in the neighborhood (maybe a hint that developers might actually let the golf course take precedence over the housing lots!!).  I personally know one builder who has had three brand new houses for sale there for over two years!

Derek,

I actually posted about the 18th hole back in the old "worst golf holes" thread.  I am sorry that you got such a sour taste from that course, if I had known that any GCAers were going to be around I could have set you up at my home course up the street, Chapel Hills CC- a much better, though not spectacular Rocky Roquemore design or our sister course Mirror Lake in nearby Villa Rica- a pretty spectacular lakefront course that shows just how much Rocky Roquemore has (and hasn't) matured as designer in the 8 years since he did Chapel Hills.

JohnV,

As for criticizing budget country clubs... our dues at Chapel Hills are only $500 initiation and $160 a month and I would not trade it for anything.  Our membership, by being a part of the Canongate clubs, gives us full priveleges and access to 180 holes of golf around Atlanta.  There is nothing not to like about Chapel Hills, the people are great, the atmosphere is wonderful and the golf, for the price, is unmatched.  

I don't mean to sound upset, but I practically grew up at my home "budget" club.  It probably shaped my adolescence more than any other outside factor.  After I left Douglasville for college at the University of Tennessee I got a job at a club up in Knoxville.  The initiation and dues were outrageous, the atmosphere was snotty and the golf course sucked.  

I guess all I am trying to say is don't judge a course by the amount of money its members shell out.

Thanks,
     Keith

[Brad Klein]

The only question I have on the basis of a quick view of the photos from the Web site is what the Georgia state government regulatory authorities are doing allowing them to build such as course in the first place? It looks like an engineering and environmental nightmare.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

I can't comment on the playability of a golf course I've never layed eyes on.
You wouldn't want me to do that,
would you ?  

You must have me confused with TEPaul  

[TEPaul]

a clay man:

I think you did have Pat Mucci confused with me. I'm the one who can see things in photos---Pat apparently can't. Some of us used to think if we showed Pat a photo of a golf hole he might be able to tell it's a golf hole, but now, as you can see from his post above, even that's debatable!

Derek:

#18 at 480 uphill sounds extremely interesting although you clearly don't know how to recognize and play an interesting hole like that one when you see it! I can't believe you played that hole 5 iron, 7 iron, 7 iron! That's the most mundane way to play that hole imaginable! The far more interesting and gratifying strategy on that particularly hole is 7 iron, 5 iron, 7 iron! My God man, what's the matter with you?

[Mike_Cirba]

I still have yet to see anything nearly as bad as Jim Fazio's "Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge".  (shouldn't the name have been a dead giveaway?)

The course, which traverses NEARLY 13 MILES!!!, and still can't find suitable holes, includes such beauties as the 322 yard fourth.  The tee shot must travel approximately 130 yards, lest one enter a wall-to-wall wetlands area with thick woods on each side.  The wetlands continue unabated, with high cattails and such which completely block the view of the distant green.  The 190 yard second must carry the wetlands (there is NO way to play around them as woods continue on each side).  In case you overshoot your target, a bunker beyond the green continues the punishment.  

However, you have no way of knowing whether your ball made the carry or not, so playing within the rules of the game becomes a crapshoot.  

Did I mention the 420 yard 16th, where a 300+ yard carry over steeply downhill, rocky terrain is required to reach the fairway?  Nice view, though.  

[TEPaul]

"...with high cattails and such which completely block the view of the distant green."
Mike Cirba

So Mike, now we find out that you secretly hate blind greens and that everything must be right in front of you!!

I think requiring a player to accept some cattail blindness and a 190 yds approach shot after whimping out with an apparent 130 yd forced tee shot is a really cool strategic innovation! You obviously forgot about the aggressive strategic option of firing the ball 321 yds over everything from the tee!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Touche'!

Obviously, I've been unmasked as a hypocrite in my earlier espousal of blind shots.  

However, practicality had to eventually rule, as I might very well still be on the tee, hitting shot 14,794 had I seen the light of your suggested daring strategy when I had the misfortune of playing that course a few years back.

As it was, my 8-iron from the tee sailed into the cursed cattails.  Obviously, I wasn't using enough club!

Or, are you just trying to sell me on your new-found ideas of "unfairness" in golf?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Mike
Your discription reminds of a goofy hole at Pinehurst #7 - probably the most memorable hole on a most forgetable golf course.

[Ken_Cotner]

Mike
Your discription reminds of a goofy hole at Pinehurst #7 - probably the most memorable hole on a most forgetable golf course.

Tom, I remember many of the holes at #7, even several years after I last played it.  I enjoyed the course although I didn't love it.  Which hole are you referring to?

Thanks -- Ken

[Derek_Duncan]

Tom Paul,

Driving with a 7-iron?  Duh!  That would have also been the smart play at the 11th and 17th, where I should have laid-up short of the cart path.

Not to pile on (even though I started the thread ) but the "architect"/car salesman's name is Jim Ganley.  At least the course isn't further compromised by too many homes, as Keith Williams pointed out, although if you could see the routing map on the scorecard this course was destined to have wall-to-wall housing.  It's completely studded with lots for sale.  

Mike Cirba,

I too, when laying up on a particular hole with a short iron, had a six foot "shrubbery" swat my Titleist into the muck.  My fault for playing than particular line, however.  The options were there to play five feet left or right of the bush.  Perhaps this is the direction GCA is heading?  Defense by weed?  It's these subtle things that don't show up on a scorecard that make courses great, right?

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat- I was teasing, but I didn't make a mistake as I will attempt to post the quote. I knew you were teasing, but I couldn't resist.

Pat Mucci wrote-
 "I have played Caves Valley a good number of times,
Which automatically disqualifies me, with this group, from commenting on its play and architectual merit, especially since I haven't seen any pictures of it."  

[Mike_Cirba]

Derek,

Speaking of "defense by weed", I recall a Gary Player design near Ocean City, MD which had one of those tight, downhill, long iron layup, then pitch across the wetlands jobbers where the growth in the environmental area was about 8-10 feet high and obscured the green entirely.  One could barely make out the flagstick, from a downhill lie, pitching from about 90 yards.  Awesome.    

As far as James Ganley, he was recently responsible for a complete redesign of a course in my neck of the woods, near York, PA.  The original course wasn't much at all, and has been completely overhauled top to bottom on some decent property.  I stopped by one day to pick up a scorecard, and it looked interesting enough to put it on my playlist for later this year.  I'll be curious to see what he is able to do with some decent acreage.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

It doesn't look that bad.....Afterall you could use the cart paths for Mountain bike paths...or maybe extreme go cart racing....a new event for the X-Games...

You guys need to find the silver lining in this.......just look real hard.

[Adam_Messix]

Mike,

I have not played River Run in a number of years, but i told dad that I thought that area in front of the green on #14 (I think) would eventually be a problem.  

Speaking of layups Mike, where would the 1st hole at Chester River fit in the mix here.  When the usual spring & autumn winds blow into your face, it suicide to try and knock it across, even at 210 yards to reach the fairway.  Therefore, you have to layup with an 8 or 9 iron.  It's still a reasonable 150 yard shot in after a layup, but still....  I've always debated the merits of the hole and the older (and longer) I've gotten, the better the hole gets in my mind.  I think moving the regular tees up would make the hole better in that it would make more people think about taking driver.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Adam,

Great to hear from you.  Hope all is well.  

I should have known you'd know the Gary Player course in question, River Run.  Really appalling architecture, all around!

You asked a good question about Chester River.  I recall hitting that 8-iron off the first tee with you, which left quite the daunting approach first thing in the morning.  I can't recall, but did you tell me that the tee used to be back behind the road?  In any case, I'm not sure that moving the tee forward would tempt that many more players.  It would also make the layup even shorter than it now plays.  

However, even with the windy site, it's still a reasonable carry for good players like yourself on most days, should you choose to test your nerves early.  Still, it is hardly an orthodox starting hole, although I confess that I really liked the "pick your poision" dilemma.  

With the great 2nd and stringent 3rd holes to follow, I know of few courses that can just knock you completely out of the box so quickly.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

The second par 3 at Spanish Bay had the same feature,
tall cattails totallly blocking everything but the pin.
The real problem was that the green had water hazards left and right so you could never tell how much room you had left or right of any pin location.  Poor design if I ever saw it.
I understand that the situation has been ameliorated or totally corrected, but for a while it was a horror.