[DMoriarty]

 

David,

I think I get your argument about that shot at ANGC - not the putter part but the general strategy of bunting it along the ground towards the right side of the green.  Worst case result bogie with par being a real possibility.  The full shot option brings the water into play, although when properly executed will generally result in a better score than the ground approach.

I guess the option one chooses depends on confidence in executing the aerial approach.

Depending on the situation, I often turn this last statement around.  In other words, I often feel like the ground game is the better choice, but if I do not have confidence that I can hit the shot or if the conditions are working against it, then I settle for the aerial game.

My home course has quite a few shots where I think the ground game is probably the better shot for not only me, but for golfers both better and worse (yes a few are worse) than me,  but unfortunately the conditions do not always allow for it, especially early in the morning in the summer when they soak the course to combat hot days.   So I often find myself frustrated into having to hit aerials even though I don't think they should be the appropriate shot.   I believe that in some of these situations those with whom I play (better golfers than me) are similarly frustrated.

The reason I teach it to high and mid handicappers is exactly what someone else said - percentages - because it's the less risky play for them.  If they go only with the high pitch, they're more likely to blade/chunk it a good percentage of the time, whereas with one basic setup and a simple motion they have a go-to short shot and see a big change in their score.

And that change is almost instant once they've given up the idea of having to fly every shot.  That fear of hitting the runner seems to be a leading cause of the wedge yips...

As far as the pros go, I've rattled a few other players in my time with well-executed run-up shots that finish stiff, so I can buy that.  But when under pressure, it can be used by better players for the same reason it's used by the higher handicappers - avoiding the choke and giving yourself a shot.

Well said.

[David Botimer]

At Bandon Dunes Golf Resort, I witness approximately 95% short chip shots executed with a lob wedge mishit, oftentimes with the ball ending fairly close to its original location.  Links course soil being so firm (like concrete) leaves wind irrelevant when choosing flying vs. bumping.

It seems the cutoff point of skill level is around a 5 handicap, being the player who has the skill to lob short shots off tight lies.  It usually doesn't take long for players here to attempt the bump and run, even if they haven't learned the shot before coming here as they quickly learn how easy the mechanics of it are compared to the lob shot off the tight lie.

[Tim Bert]

At Bandon Dunes Golf Resort, I witness approximately 95% short chip shots executed with a lob wedge mishit, oftentimes with the ball ending fairly close to its original location.  Links course soil being so firm (like concrete) leaves wind irrelevant when choosing flying vs. bumping.

It seems the cutoff point of skill level is around a 5 handicap, being the player who has the skill to lob short shots off tight lies.  It usually doesn't take long for players here to attempt the bump and run, even if they haven't learned the shot before coming here as they quickly learn how easy the mechanics of it are compared to the lob shot off the tight lie.

Bing! Bing! Bing! - I didn't go to Bandon looking to hit the bump and run just because it looked like a good place to hit it.  In addition to the options many of the holes presented and the wind that was often blowing, it was the tight lies that won me over the fastest.

Add the following to Moriarty's list for me:

Fear

When I scared to death of all options and looking to avoid disaster (and therefore on the verge of disaster through negative thoughts) the ground game provides often provides a nice, safe option until I can get back on the "no fear" pony.

Sometimes what looks to be an extremely stupid play to a good golfer is not so stupid for the hack.   That was my point in introducing the notion of putting on 11th at Augusta.   

That this point is so hard to get across reinforces its validity.   

The first time I played Yale a few years ago, I putted down to the green off the mountain on #18 from 150 yards.  I was already out of the hole, and it looked like fun at the time.

By the way - don't let Shivas fool you.  I've been a witness to him choosing the ground game when it wasn't the obvious choice.  #1 at Pacific Grove.

[Adam Clayman]

Dave. In my defense I didn't paint that corner you did. One of the downsides of using a legal mind defending either side of an argument w/o smileys.

[Rick Shefchik]

I don't know why the ground-hugging shot is more fun, but it is. Maybe because we hit thousands of standard iron shots in the air, but not so many bump-and-runs, so the ground shots take more thought.

But Shivas is right about the distance danger. The other day I had to hit a 140-yard shot, into a stiff breeze, under a tree branch to a plateau green that's fronted by a deep Valley of Sin (#10 at Stillwater Country Club, for Dan Kelly and any others who might have played that unique hole.) I chose a five-iron, punched the shot straight at the flag, watched it disappear over the ridge and down into the Valley of Sin, then saw it reappear as it rolled up the 15-foot shaved embankment and onto the green, all the while telling myself, "What a great shot. God, that's fun!"

Then I kept watching as the ball curled past the hole, ran to the back edge,  and disappeared down the steep back of the plateau green, leaving what turned out to be a nasty flop from the rough, ten feet below the green surface. Bogey.

It was the only shot I will ever remember from that round, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but I probably couldn't pull it off even that well next time.

[John Kirk]

6th hole, Pumpkin Ridge (With Hollow), 446 yards, par 4, about one week ago

I hit a reasonable drive and had 190 yards left to a front left pin, tight against the small pond guarding the left side of the green.  The ground contours on the right side of the fairway tend to feed balls back towards the green.

I tend to pull-draw shots, and can't reliably hit a soft, high mid-iron.  Instead of trying to fly a 4-iron onto the green beyond the pin, I flattened my swing and "leaned" into a punched 5-iron, which landed 25 yards short of the green, bounced three times and dribbled onto the green, 12 feet right of the hole.  Birdie.

However, I generally agree that "shooting darts" with short irons and wedges is far more accurate under windless conditions, regardless of course firmness.  For me, a low, rolling long iron shot is generally more reliable than trying to hit a high soft one, and I love to pull that shot off.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I guess I take the view that playing golf involves identifying the option where you have the most control over the ball, which generally favors the aerial approach unless it's windy.

Phil,

Recently, I was playing a hole that was surrounded extremely well by nasty bunkers.  However the approach was angled open, favoring an approach from the left.  I had pulled my drive and had a dicey lie.
I opted to punch a shot which would land well short of the green and roll up on the green, at best.

An aerial shot would have had too much variance and could have put me in the nasty bunkers leaving me a very difficult recovery.  But, playing to the front of the green, by allowing my ball to roll their removed a great deal of the uncertainty and potential for disaster.

I made the front of the green and two putted.

Had I taken the aerial approach, the odds for bogey and higher would have climbed.

[Garland Bayley]

Why use the ground game unless its (sic) really windy?

To keep the ball under those #@^%&@$% branches.
 

[Sean_A]

What folks must realize is that Shivas almost exclusively describes shots from the perspective of a very low cap player.  There is no doubt that this player should be looking for ways to put the ball in the air because it is more predictable unless conditions or angles dictate otherwise.  I have lived so long in the UK now that I look for ways to put the ball on the floor when possible because conditions are for the most part reversed from what I grew up with in the States.  Lob wedge?  What is that?  There are so few times when I can use this tool that I never bothered to buy one.  Its almost like the old Hogan adgae.  You should only use the driver off the deck once a round because there is only once that it can be properly used when a proper risk evaluation is conducted.  

Playing Tobacco Road can be very frustrating for me because much of the course is designed for the ground game approaches, but the maintanance doesn't allow for it.  Thats why I could never make this course my home course - its half a course.  Thats the bottom line for me.  Any course taht excludes the ground game for whatever reason, is half a course.

Ciao

[McCloskey]

Easy answer

Early in the round you purposefully play some shot low and let your fellow players know that you were using a "ground game" approach due to your lie or angle of play, etc.
Then later when you are trying to hit a normal aerial shot, like any real player does unless under extremely windy conditions, and you top it and it rolls on the green, you can just claim that you were playing another "ground game" shot because the situation called for it.    No one wants to be considered inept or just lucky.   

Sorry, but true, if honest.   LOL

[John Burzynski]

I don't know why the ground-hugging shot is more fun, but it is. Maybe because we hit thousands of standard iron shots in the air, but not so many bump-and-runs, so the ground shots take more thought.

But Shivas is right about the distance danger. The other day I had to hit a 140-yard shot, into a stiff breeze, under a tree branch to a plateau green that's fronted by a deep Valley of Sin (#10 at Stillwater Country Club, for Dan Kelly and any others who might have played that unique hole.) I chose a five-iron, punched the shot straight at the flag, watched it disappear over the ridge and down into the Valley of Sin, then saw it reappear as it rolled up the 15-foot shaved embankment and onto the green, all the while telling myself, "What a great shot. God, that's fun!"

Then I kept watching as the ball curled past the hole, ran to the back edge,  and disappeared down the steep back of the plateau green, leaving what turned out to be a nasty flop from the rough, ten feet below the green surface. Bogey.

It was the only shot I will ever remember from that round, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat, but I probably couldn't pull it off even that well next time.

That reminds me of another ground based shot that I use quite a bit, and it isn't hard to perform if you have some experience with it.

Say you are 10-15 yards off of the side of a raised green.  If you hit a shot at the right speed and angle into the side of the raised green (or even a deper grass swale or grass bunker), the ball will pop up into the air and onto the green.

Maybe kind of dumb, but it works, sometimes by accident.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Maybe kind of dumb, but it works, sometimes by accident.

Not dumb. It is used by the pros a lot. However, probably the shot that lost Tiger the open at Oakmont as it led to a double bogey. Baddeley played the same shot on the same hole, successfully saving par.

[Adam Clayman]

Figuring the thump is an added bonus for the aware. The slight differences between Rick's shot if he had played one less club or 1/8 less back swing is a result of the previous 17 holes observations. This calculating, even when wrong, is an aspect of the game I would consider to be highly intellectual. Stock club distances tax nothing but execution.

[Peter Pallotta]

It's sometimes the smartest and almost always the safest way to play for a golfer like me. It helps me avoid the really ugly number (or at least a string of them) as I bump it around to stay out of trouble. And after a long lay-off it still lets me "feel" like a golfer, which is nice when my scores don't suggest I am or ever was....

Peter

[Tony Ristola]

If you have hard and fast conditions, you don't even require wind.

One course I grew up playing lacked fairway irrigation. During the summer the fairways were baked to a nice dormant looking tan. The greens and tees were irrigated, so you could take the aerial approach, but if you missed the green, your ball would bound to the next county.

It was a wise play to bounce it in. Hard and fast will force the ground game, but how many North American courses would have the guts to turn off their irrigation system for long periods?

[Greg Murphy]

Tony,

This spring the course where I play most of my golf had irrigation system issues, there was almost no rainfall and the wind blew like crazy. The soils are clay. The course played exceptionally firm and fast.

One good thing about rock hard fairways and greens, when the wind blows, is that it makes it easier to hit the ball on a lower trajectory, and you get a bit of extra roll when hitting into the wind.

I would be the first to admit that some of my most memorable, most "fun" shots (after the fact) have been low and running, usually because I have been blocked by tree branches as the result of a previous crooked shot. Part of the fun in those shots is that it feels like getting out of jail when successfully executed. They are memorable, too, because they are not common and have a one-of-a-kind character.

However, I would bet you could not find half a dozen members who thought it was more fun to play our course this spring when it was so hard and fast than in its normal condition. I wonder if I could find one actually. Without question, it FORCED one to play the ground game. The membership was on the verge of a full scale mutiny. No way would management survive if that was the condition on an ongoing basis.

I think those on this site tend to underestimate how difficult it is to hit balls high in the air, to a target, the correct distance. Either that or they can't hit that type of shot and want to take the advantage away from those who can. My sense is that the vast majority of players of all abilities have more fun hitting those shots on a regular basis than shots of the low running variety. Not that they don't get a kick out of manufacturing shots. But they want that to spice things up rather than being forced to eat it as a steady diet.

Part of golf is tactile. The feeling through the hands and body on a high trajectory shot from maintained turf is sweeter than the feeling of hitting a low running punch off pavement. As well, the sight of a ball in flight has never become routine for any of the players I play with, whether a scratch or an 18. Non-golfers do not get that.

So I don't think many golf courses have the guts to turn off the irrigation, as it is not what the vast majority of golfers want.

I realize these are extremes we are talking about. Forcing the ground game seems to take away one of the games dimensions. Encouraging the ground game as an option adds dimension. Ideally, you want to encourage the ground game as a sensible and fun play in certain circumstances. It is hard to do that for the really, really, really good player who can fly the ball and make it stick to anything short of concrete, but that type of player is, I think, an extreme rarity.

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