[Phil Benedict]

Over on the ANGC thread there is a lively debate on how to play a particular shot on the 11th hole.  The guy who actually played it flew the ball to the green because he believed this was the most predictable shot to execute:  land the ball on the green and stop it.

There was quite a bit of ground play at the Open Championship.  In that case the bounce of the ball was less unpredictable than the flight of the ball because of the effect of the wind on the ball when it was in the air.  Take away the wind and I think the world's best would opt for the aerial game, even on a links course.

I guess I take the view that playing golf involves identifying the option where you have the most control over the ball, which generally favors the aerial approach unless it's windy.

[Jerry Kluger]

Firm greens

[Pete_Pittock]

Depending on your skill level, percentage

[ChipOat]

.........or unless the greens are too hard to hold an aerial shot.

I've never seen a "firm & fast" maintenance meld that included soft greens (unless it just rained).

For example, carrying the ball to the front/middle of most every green at National on the rare windless day is unlikely to work very well from any distance greater than 125 yards, or so - especially to a front flagstick.  The same is pretty much true at Shinnecock, although perhaps not quite as much.  And I promise you it is true at TOC.

[Phil Benedict]

Firm greens

Jerry,

Good answer.  Where do you land the ball when the greens are firm?  As close to the target as possible given the firmness of the greens?  To a spot where the bounce is most predictable?  

I have no links golf experience so my bias is towards the aerial game.

[DMoriarty]

Use the ground game when there are/is . . .

Safer and more inviting targets off greens than on. 

Greens unreceptive to the aerial game.

Hazards you would rather play around than over.

Helpful slopes around target

avenues that offer a greater margin of error

opportunities to swing easier

features which are more difficult to navigate with the aerial game. 

Gamesmanship.

Overhanging branches.

Low flying aircraft.

He seems to fail to comprehend that it's not strategy if you're just looking for ways to kick the ball along the ground.  That's called soccer.

"Far & Sure".  It's been the holy grail goal of the game since there was a game. 

Like it or not, golf is a ground game. 

I went to a "professional" (for America) soccer game a few weeks ago.  Much more entertaining and strategic than I expected.   So maybe you are on to something.

[DMoriarty]

Y

Gamesmanship.

Gamesmanship?

Are you fricking kidding?

Yeah, I'm petrified of my opponent when he's too much of a puss to hit a full swing wedge from 130 yards.  Yup, I'm just quaking in my Foot Joys.

LOL!   

You've obviously never had the pleasure of seeing the look on Lynn Shackelford's face after he watches his opponent's 75 yard putt roll to gimme range.

Nothing annoys a good golfer more than a bad golfer pulling off what looks to be an extremely stupid play.

[Jay Flemma]

or neil regan's!

[Phil Benedict]

"Nothing annoys a good golfer more than a bad golfer pulling off what looks to be an extremely stupid play."

How does one respond to a statement like this?  Otherwise ill-advised strategy as a form of psychological warfare against good golfers?

[DMoriarty]

"Nothing annoys a good golfer more than a bad golfer pulling off what looks to be an extremely stupid play."

How does one respond to a statement like this?  Otherwise ill-advised strategy as a form of psychological warfare against good golfers?

Phil,

Sometimes what looks to be an extremely stupid play to a good golfer is not so stupid for the hack.   That was my point in introducing the notion of putting on 11th at Augusta.   

That this point is so hard to get across reinforces its validity.   

[Adam Clayman]

Because it's more fun.

Shivas' position is the laughing stock at my home course and Wild Horse of course.

[Phil Benedict]

David,

I think I get your argument about that shot at ANGC - not the putter part but the general strategy of bunting it along the ground towards the right side of the green.  Worst case result bogie with par being a real possibility.  The full shot option brings the water into play, although when properly executed will generally result in a better score than the ground approach.

I guess the option one chooses depends on confidence in executing the aerial approach.

[Tim Pitner]

I reject the notion that the ground game is for less skilled players.  For me, I usually favor the aerial approach (at least on shots outside of 50 yards) because I'm more confident with a full-swing shot than with some 1/2 or 3/4 swing that I don't practice very much.  If I were a better player, I'd use the ground game more, not less. 

I thought Tom Watson's comments during the Open Championship at Birkdale were interesting.  He said that when the wind blows very hard, there's little point in trying to work the ball to counteract the effect of the wind.  You just have to aim way left or way right and let the wind do the work.  He also said he didn't try to change his high ball flight that much at the Open.  He just tried to hit it solidly.  Many good links players say something different but Watson won 5 Opens so he's worth listening to on the subject. 

The ground game is lots of fun, but conditions have to be right for it.  I discovered recently that the ground game works very well at Ballyneal, for instance, but not at all at Fossil Trace.  If the ball doesn't run in the fairways, there's little room for the ground game. 

[Garland Bayley]

Because the aerial game discourages beginners from taking up the game. Everyone these days seems to think hitting lob wedges is the thing to do. Do you know how hard it is for a beginner to hit a lob wedge? Us old geezers that learned to bump a 7 iron in from off the green don't have to suffer the indignities of missed lob wedge shots.

[Adam Clayman]

No sir re bob. I was referring to Your position which in my mind is inextricably linked to  previous posts that had phrases which resembled the following...The ground game is dead and/or No one plays the ground game.

I'm glad someone finally mentioned the architects original intent.
BTW, I suspect the shot would be a 4 iron hit 70 yards in the air to the leeward side of the forward hump with 60 yards of roll.

[Tim Pitner]

Shivas,

Honestly, I'm more concerned with chunking or skulling a manufactured shot that I am with flushing it too far and I do attribute that to not playing that shot on a consistent basis.  If I regularly played courses where there are more ground game options, I think I would practice those shots more.  So, to say they don't work is simplistic.  They don't work on a lot of U.S. parkland courses--I'll give you that. 

Once you understand how far to swing with a particular club for a particular shot, the less than full swing should decrease the possible outcomes, not increase them.  You should, for example, be able to take the bad hook or slice out of play.  So, even if you have the possibility of "nuking" the shot (which I think can be minimized), you still have less variables than with the full swing.  All of this, of course, is contingent on having a playing field which allows for running shots. 

[Chip Gaskins]

i love the ground game very much.  it is the most fun, most creative, most fulfilling.  i love it to the point i don't carry a lob wedge, 56 degrees is my most lofted club.  i would rather bump a little 8 iron along the ground versus hit a flop.  however, there this is a time and place and if my intent is to shoot the lowest possible score and the shot calls for the aerial shot versus the ground shot, then i am going to hit the shot i think will produce the lowest score (I know, very obvious statement) and if my intent is to have fun and enjoy the architecture then i may hit the low runner just have fun even if it is probably lower odds.  it all depends on my intent for the round.

I think we need to discuss intent.  is the intent to hit the "most fun shot" or the "most effective shot".

ps.  i just posted the entire run of pics for the triple bogey on #11 at ANGC to laugh at and learn what not to do there.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Phil,
In all seriousness, because it's fun and it adds another dimension to the game. 

[Brian_Sleeman]

The reason I teach it to high and mid handicappers is exactly what someone else said - percentages - because it's the less risky play for them.  If they go only with the high pitch, they're more likely to blade/chunk it a good percentage of the time, whereas with one basic setup and a simple motion they have a go-to short shot and see a big change in their score.

And that change is almost instant once they've given up the idea of having to fly every shot.  That fear of hitting the runner seems to be a leading cause of the wedge yips...

As far as the pros go, I've rattled a few other players in my time with well-executed run-up shots that finish stiff, so I can buy that.  But when under pressure, it can be used by better players for the same reason it's used by the higher handicappers - avoiding the choke and giving yourself a shot.

[Wayne_Freedman]

Why?

Because  it's fun!

If you can, then do.

[Phil Benedict]

I understand the fun part but I think Chip's question about fun vs. function is the crux of the issue.  Other than in windy conditions, how often is the ground option the most functional shot for an approach where one option is a full swing iron that flies all the way to the green?  In my game not very often because there are so many unknowns in the ground option - how big will the first bounce be; how far will it roll; how hard do I have to hit it to get to the intented landing area?

I view the ground game as a tool for windy conditions and recovery shots and a form of risk management which I almost never avail myself of in normal conditions. 

[Reef Wilson]

i love the ground game very much.  it is the most fun, most creative, most fulfilling.

What he said.

Another situation requiring ground game is TREES. Last week I hit one of my most pleasing shots in a while. a 2 iron from the rough 140 yards out that was on the ground for at least 50 yards at the end between 2 bunkers to 20 feet from the hole.

Reef

[JESII]

hopefully because the superintendent has the course rock hard...

[John Burzynski]

Because it is easier for me, I flub too many lob wedge shots to make this shot a consistent viable option, I don't even carry a LW anymore.

I learned to pitch with a 7 iron, and use a 5 and 9 also to do the same.  It is just more natural, and accurate, for me.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, You see thats the problem. Shivas lives and plays in the land of the lowest common denominator. Most of Chicago golf suffers from the ills of peer pressure. Think Green is good. Back in the day, pre- wall to wall irrigation, there were times and places when the ground game was a viable option. I suspect nowadays, those places are few.

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