[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm not in the camp of intellectuals who think that few golfers consider architecture when playing. 


So, it's your theory that golfers ignore bunker, creeks, ponds, deep rough and the like when playing ?

So, taking the course best known to each one of us, assuming we are playing from the member tees where hazards and risk reward are in play, what do you think is in the mind of the golfer who does not consider architecture.

Could you name me five (5) golfers who don't see or ignore bunkers, creeks, ponds, deep rough and the like ?

Please save your pithy attemps at humor.

Let's take the most simple and perhaps most famous shot, the tee ball on 12 to a back right Sunday pin.

How can a golfer hit that shot and not consider the architecture of the hole?

Unless he's playing at midnight, he can't.

The architecture/architectural features send all of the tactical signals required for the golfer to understand the circumstances surrounding the shot at hand.

Has anyone bothered to notice the slope of the fairway where Chip's ball lies ?
Will that influence his swing, aim and choice of clubs ?

[Chip Gaskins]

Shivas- You are exactly right.  The shot couldn't be much more straight-forward.  I just didn't hit a good shot.

DMoriarty-
Again, concerning ANGC, the rye grass is so sticky and the greens are so fast you just can't run balls along the ground and have any distance control.  You have to fly them onto the green with spin. 

Now if you played in firm bermuda grass conditions then you could actually run a few shots onto the green but with sticky rye grass, especially on 11 with those front right mounds, you could never get it close to the hole.

Maybe in the UK (or even a few U.S.) courses where the fairways play about the same speed as the greens that 130 yard (though I can't hit my putter but about 60 ft with very much control) putt would work.  But never at 13 speed greens.

I think Tom Doak wrote an essay about short grass a while back and highlighted the many strategies it poses for good golfers.  I love short grass and chipping areas, but I think insanely fast greens negate many of those options because IMO it is easier to control a ball with spin on fast greens rather than roll, especially with all the slopes of ANGC.  I swear you could drop a ball on #14 green today and come back tomorrow and it might still be rolling around.

[Jim Nugent]

Just because these guys don't have the game to pull off a 130 yard flat-iron bender to a slippery green with water left and long, they think no one can hit the shot.     

Maybe you guys should spend a little less time at the range before you draw your conclusions about what is and isnt the best play. 

I agree.  ANGC should require that everyone who wants to play their course pass a test, where they prove they can make that shot. 

[George Pazin]

I understand what "green light" means.  There is more than one way to go at this particular pin, trying to get as close as possible.

David, No there isn't.

I'd bet the Good Doctor and Bobby Jones would disagree. I certainly don't think they designed Augusta to be a shot-dictating type of a course.

[Chip Gaskins]

Actually, in the opening version of the course I would be standing in the middle of a pot bunker in the center of fairway.

[DMoriarty]

David,

This is only a guess, but it can be difficult to find a drop zone on the green-side "no closer to the hole" when the creek runs parallel to the green...perhaps this rule was put in to reduce conflict...

I'm no rules expert but my understanding is that with a lateral water hazard one still has the option of dropping w/in two club lengths of the point on the other side of the lateral which is the same distance from the hole.  So if it was impossible to legally drop from the point of entry on the right side of the hazard, one could go to the left.     

But doesn't all this imply that the area both right and left of the creek/ditch used to be maintained differently so as to be much more playable?

As it is now, some might not even guess that the ditch/creek was supposed to be the hazard on the hole, as opposed to the think rough.

[George Pazin]

Actually, in the opening version of the course I would be standing in the middle of a pot bunker in the center of fairway.

Where did you learn this? I don't recall reading of any pot bunkers in the center of fairways in the original Augusta, but I haven't read too much specifically on Augusta, aside from general thoughts from Mackenzie and Jones in their books.

[George Pazin]

They also didn't design it for people to be hitting wedges into #11.  They designed the strategy for a longer approach shot.  Once you're there, though, there's no other legitimate strategy, unless it's wholly manufactured and force-fed into a situation that doesn't warrant it.   

Still doesn't jibe with the little I've read. As downhill as that is, and from where the original tees likely were, I'd guess the expected the occasional baked out runner that would really get down there.

Didn't Jones say the inspiration for Augusta was TOC? Are there many shots at TOC where you have no choice but to hit a punch draw wedge?

Considering they (Jones & Mac) purportedly designed the course to be a joy and challenge for members and ace golfers alike, I'd guess they designed damn near every hole to be playable with a wide variety of shots.

[Brent Hutto]

So you think the course demands a variety of shots? For some of us a high, drawing, 130-yard wedge shot with spin that ground hooks to the hole from pin-high and right presents is an uncommon shot indeed. Very much so in fact. The phrase "variety of shots" has no meaning if you limit it only to geeky stuff like putting from 130 yards out.

[Kalen Braley]

While I think there are a couple of different ways that this shot could be played, in principle I'd agree that not every shot from anywhere one could possibly go on a hole is meant to have several options.

Surely if one finds a DLZ, then yes, perhaps the architect had something in mind.  But I doubt Jones and MacK gave much thought about people having an approach from that spot.

Even if its stipulated that the safer "tournament-style" play was 25 feet right of the pin and a knockdown shot, it still doesn't change the context of Chip's play in that point in time.  Give it a go and challenge the pin...getting birdie on 11 with a hole location like that would be something to write home to Momma about!!

P.S. George, I had also read on a thread somewhere I think that 11 used to have a pot bunker right in the middle of the fairway that was blind from the tee.

[George Pazin]

Raise Bob Jones from the dead and he'd tell you you're nuts to hit anything but a hard, spinning wedge, a little right of the pin, with groundhook spin.

Hate to nitpick, but I still disagree. I believe Bob & Ali wanted 80 year olds to be able to play thoughtfully; I don't think they wanted him to only be able to hit a hard spinner or accept bogey.

Just to be clear, I wouldn't putt from 130 yards, and I doubt that it would be the "best" choice for most (if best is defined at the best chance of minimizing your score).

I think this is a fundamental difference in how we each - and by extension, the whole community of golfers at large - view design.

-----

Brent -

I would not say the course demands a variety of shots - I would say it allows a variety of shots. As I said above, I harp on this point because I believe it illustrates a fundamental difference in the approach to golf course design.

[DMoriarty]

David, No there isn't.  Not from 130 yards with a green that slopes right to left off a draw lie.  That is a green light high draw shot with wedge.  That is the only way.  You're in strategery fantasy land again! 

This is not a bunt 5.  Not a cut pitch 8 iron.  It's none of this other goofy stuff you actually believe might be better than the clear and obvious shot --  a high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin.  Maybe Eldrick can hit a punch cut 8 iron toward the water off that lie, and four-hop it in there, but the rest of the world needs to be realistic, throw the ball in the air to the right, spin it (as much as possible) back to the left -- and play the aerial game there.   

Oh yes, the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left.  I'll bet all the octogenarians go with that shot every time.

But you are better golfer than me, so you must be correct.  There is no other option whatsoever.   No place to bounce it in and let it roll.  No place to punch it and let it bounce, grab, and trickle.   Only one possible club, one possible plan, one possible swing.

Given that you purport to be Seve fan, your lack of imagination astounds me. 

_________________________________________________

Shivas- You are exactly right.  The shot couldn't be much more straight-forward.  I just didn't hit a good shot.

DMoriarty-
Again, concerning ANGC, the rye grass is so sticky and the greens are so fast you just can't run balls along the ground and have any distance control.  You have to fly them onto the green with spin. 

Have you ever tried?   If not how do you know?    My home course has rye grass fairways (less so every day, but that is another story)  It may not be ideal, but it is hardly unworkable with the putter, even from range.  I doubt they have ever been cut as tight as Augusta's.   

I think Tom Doak wrote an essay about short grass a while back and highlighted the many strategies it poses for good golfers.  I love short grass and chipping areas, but I think insanely fast greens negate many of those options because IMO it is easier to control a ball with spin on fast greens rather than roll, especially with all the slopes of ANGC. 

I've seen this written before (almost always by quality golfers) but disagree.   Trying to use spin to control ones ball on extremely fast greens presents its own set of challenges.  Hit a down downslope and you may not get the spin.  Hit an upslope or side add a bit too much spin, and you may spin into the water.  Too little spin and you may release too much and into the water.   Don't have drawing spin when it hits and you may leave yourself a tougher putt than your approach.  Hit it high and bring the wind into play.  Take the shot you apparently tried to hit, it must not have been all that simple, or you wouldn't have had the opportunity to try the diabolical drop area. 

My point is that for you, Shivas, and others, "the old high, spinning wedge shot with a slight draw and ground hook spin aimed at the left center of the right bunker, with as much spin as possible drawing it back to the the left" might seem like the only option, but for others it might not even be within the realm of possibility.   

That is why I cringe whenever better (and therefor usually more one dimensional) players start making these types of pronouncements.   They assume there way is the only way, and they are often mistaken.

Actually, in the opening version of the course I would be standing in the middle of a pot bunker in the center of fairway.

Now that sounds like a place from which I might not try to putt. 

[George Pazin]

That is why I cringe whenever better (and therefor usually more one dimensional) players start making these types of pronouncements.   They assume there way is the only way, and they are often mistaken.

This is almost as good as the Pat Brockwell quote that adorns all of my posts.

[DMoriarty]

That is why I cringe whenever better (and therefor usually more one dimensional) players start making these types of pronouncements.   They assume there way is the only way, and they are often mistaken.

This is almost as good as the Pat Brockwell quote that adorns all of my posts.

Shoot, my goal was to bump off Pat Brockwell.  If I clean it up a bit, will you give me another chance?

I cringe whenever good yet one-dimensional players pronounce that there is only way to play a shot.  They are almost always mistaken.

Or how about if I simplify it further?

Shivas is an idiot.

[Brent Hutto]

The shots that can be played in most situations are legion. However, for a player of a given level of ability there is frequently a situation where "legion" translates into one shot he can play if he's keeping score and a whole bunch of others he can play if he's an idiot.

Sure a hypothetical 80-year-old won't play a high spinner from 130 yards (unless maybe it's the 80-year-old Phil Mickelson one day). But a non-hypothetical Chip Gaskins does not have some palette of high, low, left, right, fourteen different clubs equally valid and interchangeable shot choices in the situation described here. He needs to execute pretty much the shot Shiv is describing or else he's just screwing around and not really playing golf. I don't see any howling winds or rock-hard turf in the picture and there's no decent, healthy, young player in the world with any business not spinning the ball in there. Heck, from his description of the lie it was if anything helpful to the shot assuming he recognized it and aimed accordingly.

And there ain't a thing "unstrategic" or inferior about a course just because it lets someone who can drive it to within 130 yards in the middle of the fairway play a stock high, spinning wedge that has to be perfectly executed to get close to the hole. We all know the now-familiar list of safer vs. riskier plays from three clubs further out or from the right fairway/rough/trees (depending on the year you play it). But this is not one of those times, this is the time to gird your loins and execute a precise shot where the "creativity" involved is in touch, feel and judgement...not in deciding whether to pull a putter, wedge or mid-iron.

[George Pazin]

Raise Bob Jones from the dead and he'd tell you you're nuts to hit anything but a hard, spinning wedge, a little right of the pin, with groundhook spin.

Hate to nitpick, but I still disagree. I believe Bob & Ali wanted 80 year olds to be able to play thoughtfully; I don't think they wanted him to only be able to hit a hard spinner or accept bogey.

George, that's fine, but for HIM, from THERE, with THAT lie, there was just ONE shot.  He even says so....

I can accept that he believes that.

[George Pazin]

And there ain't a thing "unstrategic" or inferior about a course just because it lets someone who can drive it to within 130 yards in the middle of the fairway play a stock high, spinning wedge that has to be perfectly executed to get close to the hole. We all know the now-familiar list of safer vs. riskier plays from three clubs further out or from the right fairway/rough/trees (depending on the year you play it). But this is not one of those times, this is the time to gird your loins and execute a precise shot where the "creativity" involved is in touch, feel and judgement...not in deciding whether to pull a putter, wedge or mid-iron.

Your tone seems to imply I'm criticising Augusta; I'm trying to praise it for allowing other shots. Imagine if the course were like many others and had bunkers fronting the green, or a big stream or pond right in front of it.

Every shot requires manning up and executing, once the decision has been made. Not every course allows golfers with different skill sets to compete on a relatively level playing field (no pun intended).

Again, I am not criticising Chip's play or decision - I am trying to highlight a fundamental difference in the approach to design or evaluating design. When one considers that a certain situation DEMANDS a particular shot, one tends to design or evaluate in such a fashion as well.

[George Pazin]

You might want to wrap your arms around this: 

the better players are more one dimensional because that one dimension WORKS! 

A very interesting point, which begs the question: If more courses were designed like TOC, would one dimensional golf prevail?

[Chip Gaskins]

George-

yes, there was a hidden pot bunker in the middle of the fairway on 11.  in the opening round of ANGC Bobby Jones played with his dad (who was a supposed hard ass Army officer) who hit it in the bunker and turned to Bobby and said "who put that god da&m bunker there" and evidently it was removed the next day.

i also don't think there was a real pond beside 11, it was more of a ditch to the back left of the green site.

plus the greens rolled 8-9, not 12-13.

playing from the masters tees i would not have been able to reach the green probably.  more like a 3 wood/hybrid...i would have laid up.

again, 9 iron is the shot out the right.  i guarantee you could stand there with a shag bag and not get one close to the hole putting (or running) it.

DMoriaty-

the guy that I played with is British and putts from anywhere inside a 100 yards (bunkers, rough, you name it)...and does it very well.  he didn't do it all at ANGC....the greens are too fast.  period.  and that was his 5th round there.

if the greens were not so fast then it brings so many more options in to play.  but at those speeds i don't see how anything but a wedge with spin is the shot to play.  don't get me wrong, i would much rather it be like TOC where you have a bunch of options, but you don't.

again, we have all watch the masters for decades...tell me who remembers anyone putting the ball from short right on 11.

[George Pazin]

George-

yes, there was a hidden pot bunker in the middle of the fairway on 11.  in the opening round of ANGC Bobby Jones played with his dad (who was a supposed hard ass Army officer) who hit it in the bunker and turned to Bobby and said "who put that god da&m bunker there" and evidently it was removed the next day.

i also don't think there was a real pond beside 11, it was more of a ditch to the back left of the green site.

...

i guarantee you could stand there with a shag bag and not get one close to the hole putting (or running) it.

Thanks for the historical info.

I'd be happy to try putting from there all day.

[Kalen Braley]

It must be GCA.com when you have pages of discussion based around one slightly tugged short iron shot!!!

I suspect if he had tugged a bump and run 6 iron, or tugged his putter it could have also gone in the water.

Why can't a bad result be simply explained by poor execution!!

As a high capper myself, I frequently try to play to the safest part of the green or fairway, yet often still find a way to hit in the gunch/water/tall stuff/crap.

[DMoriarty]

Brett

I don't think octogenarians are hypothetical at Augusta . . . are they? 

Brett, Chip, and Shivas,

It seems at the beginning the point was that this was a "green light" and there was one proper "green light" shot from this position.  That has evolved into for this particular player with his particular skill set (including a number of variables such as distance control, distance judgment, the ability to spin it a lot out of uncut fairways and put a "draw ground spin on the ball")  with this particular grass type and this particular frost delay resulting in this particular grass length and this particular lie and these particular wind conditions and this particular ground firmness and this golfer's particular goal of keeping score (as opposed to matchplay?) and this particular golfer's judgment of a "green light" situation and this particular hanging lie and this particular green speed and slope, there is only one shot.

And your conclusion is that this is somehow a one dimensional shot?   That golf is brainless?  That variables are not weighed and choices are not made?  Interesting analysis, but entirely unconvincing.   

You started by generalizing from Chip's specific situation, but to try to support your generalization you have backed-tracked right back into a circumstance that is unique to Chip, therefor rendering your own generalization completely meaningless. 

_____________________

Chip,  how in the world do you know, or think you know, when putting is the right play for me?   

[Brent Hutto]

George,

You are right, ANGC is superior to many other courses for the options it still offers on many shots. Given the "toughening up" it has endured of late, most other tournament courses would by now by nigh unplayable even from the up tees. It's a marvel how much of its original value endures.

Dave M,

Well, it's hardly specific to Chip. I'd say that's a "green light" shot to a huge range of players. Even a bogey golfer who bunts the ball around like I do (and lefty to boot) would only have to play a moderately conservative 7-iron short and well right in that circumstance (which BTW I could only experience for a third shot, not being able to drive it anywhere near that far from even the member's tees I'm sure).

[George Pazin]

Why can't a bad result be simply explained by poor execution!!

It's not a matter of explaining it - it's a matter of addressing the supposed demands of a shot. As I said repeatedly, I'm not questioning his decision or even execution, I am questioning the approach and its implications for architecture.

[Chip Gaskins]

DMoriarty-

Dude, why the hostility toward me.?  Where did I say anything about when YOU should or should not putt.  I was making general statements about the conditions and why putting IMO would be a very bad decision (and listed all the reasons why).  If you think you can putt that ball close to pin, be my guest, give it a go, but given I have never seen ANYONE for 25 years of watching the Masters (in person and on TV) try and putt from that location, including Seve, Crenshaw, etc I assume (though I didn't say it in my posts) you specifically couldn't do it either.  Maybe you can?

Listen I am not about trying to make things harder than they should be...it was a freakin 130 yard shot in the center of the fairway to a benign pin.  I hit the shot I thought I could get closest and I pulled it a few yards and made 7.  Faced with that shot again, I do the same thing 10 out of 10 times.  I just hit a bad shot.  I must just not be smart enough or good enough to have the imagination to try the running shot when the situation doesn't call for it.

What in the world is a octogenarians anyway?

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