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John Kavanaugh

John,

Don't all golfers, from numbskull to intellectual, basically take in information to prepare for a shot, make a decision, then try to execute the idea?  Many may not think of it as "considering the architecture" but they are, as well as...what is the wind doing, how does that lie look, if I pull that frickin' 9 iron again, what are the consequences....etc etc.  Regardless of his knowledge of gca, he can miss or misinterpret information that is right in front of him, or make a poor decision or execute poorly and feel like a numbskull as the club leaves the ball, just like you said. 

Wouldn't an architectural numbskull golfer be just as likely as an gca intellectual golfer to come up with "Gotta be right" when assessing Chip's approach to 11 or "Better long than short" when assessing the obvious dangers at 12?   

That is exactly how I feel.  I toubles me considerably when posters on this site go on and on about how only they get why holes are built how they are.  Why after at least 30 years of observational empirical evidence by Shivas he would still call Chip's shot to 11 a green light situation creates entirely another catagory of numbskullian folly.

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0


Shivas, what exactly do you mean when you say that this is a "green light pin?"   Where, exactly, are you aiming?  Club? Trajectory? Expected action when the ball hits? 

______________________

I still say putter is the play.  It looks like the hole was built for the 130 yard putt!  [Whoops. Earthquake. Okay.]  Seriously.  Why not putt?   


Green light--I'd hit hard punch draw wedge, starting it middle of the back right bunker, landing at bunker's left edge, then it'd hop once, check, then release towards pin. I'd bet I'd get this inside 15' 70% of the time I'm faced with that shot (if it wasn't augusta, and/or I played it over and over again).

Putter? Don't be a douche.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
the real mistake i made was to not take the slight uphill lie i had into consideration that was just enough to make me tug it left.

there is no way i could putt that ball.  it would have 90% chance of going in the water.  hitting a shot onto that green with spin and getting it to stop was IMO the best way to get it close.  having it run onto that green was asking for trouble.  especially with out any practice being my first time out there.

i can't think of one green at ANGC where a true bump and run approach shot works.  maybe #5 or #8.  otherwise pinpoint precision shots, to below the hole with just enough spin to stop in its place.  there are lots of cool little chip shots that require mini-bump and runs (thats why the Euros always win) but not full shot bump and runs.

again, i should have just aimed further out to the right on #11.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Dave Moriarty,

I am going to assume you're carying your humor over from the Merion thread...

As Chip said, putter brings the water a hell of alot more in play than any other club in the bag...especially if the greens are as fast as he said earlier in the thread.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Green light--I'd hit hard punch draw wedge, starting it middle of the back right bunker, landing at bunker's left edge, then it'd hop once, check, then release towards pin. I'd bet I'd get this inside 15' 70% of the time I'm faced with that shot (if it wasn't augusta, and/or I played it over and over again).

Putter? Don't be a douche.

Not a douche.  A putter.  I'd never try the shot with a douche.   Too slippery at the end.   Plus, I don't have a conforming douche.  Does Calloway make one?

the real mistake i made was to not take the slight uphill lie i had into consideration that was just enough to make me tug it left.

there is no way i could putt that ball.  it would have 90% chance of going in the water.  hitting a shot onto that green with spin and getting it to stop was IMO the best way to get it close.  having it run onto that green was asking for trouble.  especially with out any practice being my first time out there.

i can't think of one green at ANGC where a true bump and run approach shot works.  maybe #5 or #8.  otherwise pinpoint precision shots, to below the hole with just enough spin to stop in its place.  there are lots of cool little chip shots that require mini-bump and runs (thats why the Euros always win) but not full shot bump and runs.

again, i should have just aimed further out to the right on #11.

Dave Moriarty,

I am going to assume you're carying your humor over from the Merion thread...

As Chip said, putter brings the water a hell of alot more in play than any other club in the bag...especially if the greens are as fast as he said earlier in the thread.

This is typical of how design gets watered down by catering to the one-dimensional hacks.   Just because these guys don't have the game to pull off a 130 yard flat-iron bender to a slippery green with water left and long, they think no one can hit the shot.     

Maybe you guys should spend a little less time at the range before you draw your conclusions about what is and isnt the best play. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 03:37:44 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kavanaugh



Not a douche.  A putter.  I'd never try the shot with a douche.   Too slippery at the end.   Plus, I don't have a conforming douche.  Does Calloway make one?



David,

I recently played a few holes with my son only using a beer bottle (because I didn't feel like walking to my car to get some clubs) and found that on downhill chips off the fringe I was more accurate than with any other chipping device.  On my thoughts and research finding if it would be conforming to use in regular play I found the following:

c. Length

Appendix II, 1c states that:
    The overall length of the club must be at least 18 inches

Being that most clubs where I play do not sell 40's or allow me to bring my own beer onto the course I found myself out of luck.  I believe that this would also exclude most douches even though I do recall once Summers Eve coming out with an extended douche for obese women.  Sadly this product was taken off the market when a focus group tragically committed mass suicide before the end of the demonstration.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you can bend a 130 yard putter away from the water I'll jump ship in the Merion debate...some genius just need to be recognized...


EDIT: One upped before I even got in the que

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
If you can bend a 130 yard putter away from the water I'll jump ship in the Merion debate...some genius just need to be recognized...


I couldn't bend it away from the water.   But think I could bend it toward the water, and it would probably make more sense for me than  "hit hard punch draw wedge, starting it middle of the back right bunker, landing at bunker's left edge, then it'd hop once, check, then release towards pin."


You set it up and I'll be glad to show you.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Maybe we'll practice the putter draw on #5 at Merion...has anyone ever thought of this as a Cape Hole???

John Kavanaugh

David is a left handed style golfer and I have seen him hit similar shots at Rustic Canyon.  It is easier to fade a putter than to draw.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
John,

Your forgetting one very huge aspect of Chips situation.  It'll likely be his only chance to play the course.  Why wouldn't he go for it from 130 yards?  He's supposed to layup?

Its like getting a rare invite to CPC and then laying up on 15 to the ladies tees because you don't think you can manage the 115 yard carry to the green.  Or laying up on 16 for that matter!!  ;D  Give it a go, live a little!!

You can't remove the fun or risk component to interfacing the architecture all the time, especially when it may be one's only chance to play the course.

Perhaps if its your home clubs championship, you play a little safer......

John Kavanaugh

Kalen,

The best way to make three or even two is to aim at the middle of the bunker and not at the pin.  Chip is in great company screwing that shot up...I bet even Hogan learned the hard way.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Maybe we'll practice the putter draw on #5 at Merion...has anyone ever thought of this as a Cape Hole???

I don't know that anyone ever thought of this as a Cape Hole . . . before you of course.  Can I quote you on that?

Merion 5 would be a great place for the long putt, given how beautifully the green and the fairway meld together.  Hopefully this will still be the case after the changes to the green for the US Open. 

While I would never think of such a thing, it would be a good place for me to practice . . . given that it is a across the road, maybe I could avoid getting shot, arrested, or both.

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?



John,

Your forgetting one very huge aspect of Chips situation.  It'll likely be his only chance to play the course.  Why wouldn't he go for it from 130 yards?  He's supposed to layup?

Its like getting a rare invite to CPC and then laying up on 15 to the ladies tees because you don't think you can manage the 115 yard carry to the green.  Or laying up on 16 for that matter!!  ;D  Give it a go, live a little!!

You can't remove the fun or risk component to interfacing the architecture all the time, especially when it may be one's only chance to play the course.

Perhaps if its your home clubs championship, you play a little safer......

I don't think anyone is suggesting that he not go for the green, just that he might consider playing a bit right of the pin.  Even in Jed Peters "green light" situation above, he is starting his shot at the middle of the back right bunker.

As for CPC 15, is it possible to layup to the women's tee?  I'll have to try that.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

I just checked the aerials....its just a little flip wedge up to the tees even though its a blind shot over the trees!!   ;D

Back to ANGC #11.  Even if it is a tucked pin left, why not still have a go for it.  Think of the thrill of sticking one close, even converting a birdie.  Think of the stories you could tell your kids and grandkids when they are all sitting around watching the Masters and the pros are puking on themsleves on that hole.  And could say you stuck one close to that dastardly pin position and made birdie when you had your shot!!!

I'm not seeing the glory to telling the kids, I played it safe and made my two putt par!!  ;)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

I just checked the aerials....its just a little flip wedge up to the tees even though its a blind shot over the trees!!   ;D

Back to ANGC #11.  Even if it is a tucked pin left, why not still have a go for it.  Think of the thrill of sticking one close, even converting a birdie.  Think of the stories you could tell your kids and grandkids when they are all sitting around watching the Masters and the pros are puking on themsleves on that hole.  And could say you stuck one close to that dastardly pin position and made birdie when you had your shot!!!

I'm not seeing the glory to telling the kids, I played it safe and made my two putt par!!  ;)

Kalen it just looks to me like, with this shot, there are many more ways than one.   The aggressive line seems a sucker's line, especially for a sucker of my ability.  I would have a much better chance of making a birdie by playing right and safe, then making a slightly longer putt.

But Kalen, you probably know that I did famously lay up left on the 16th at CPC, and am pleased to have had the will power to have done it.  So I doubt you will convince me that the aggressive line is always the best choice, even in a once in a lifetime situation.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

Its hard to know what the right line was on 11 without knowing exactly where that pin was.  If it was all the way to the left next to the water, then yes I could very well see it being a sucker pin.  However with 130 in I think its more sane that say 180 in which is just insane.

I did know about your go at 16 at CPC, but you are in good company, there are other GCA'ers who have taken that route as well!!   ;D

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
David is a left handed style golfer and I have seen him hit similar shots at Rustic Canyon.  It is easier to fade a putter than to draw.

I know!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?



I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

John Kavanaugh

[/quote]

How much more information do you need on where the pin is?  Who is taking this picture...the caddie?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?



I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

Again, your hopelessly narrow range of abilities hampers your understanding of design.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
JK, it's hard for me to compare the Augusta greens with Ballyneal or any other course I know well.  From watching television it appears Augusta's greens are really great; watching the putting there is very interesting.  My guess is the pros make the putting look easier than it really is, and that the greens are  extremely sloped for the greens speeds, with somewhat less complicated contouring than Ballyneal or other great modern courses.

I could be wrong. 

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
My buddy is taking the picture.

There was a huge frost delay that day and they did not mow the fairways that morning, so the rye was long and sticky and putting from a slow rye fringe/fairway onto the a sheet of glass green ain't exactly easy.

And again, 130 with a pin in the middle of the green is as green light situation as it gets.  i just didn't pull the shot off.

I have never seen a pro putt from too far off that green.  You can't believe how fast the green is and how much your ball is pulled to the water. Larry Mize chipped it!

As for Merion #5.  I had about 40 yards in on my third shot a few weeks ago and happily putted it due to the firm and tight fairways.  (i.e. no rye grass or lake to run into)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0

As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?



I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

Again, your hopelessly narrow range of abilities hampers your understanding of design.   


You try hitting it back in after dropping to the left...virtually impossible...

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
My buddy is taking the picture.

There was a huge frost delay that day and they did not mow the fairways that morning, so the rye was long and sticky and putting from a slow rye fringe/fairway onto the a sheet of glass green ain't exactly easy.

And again, 130 with a pin in the middle of the green is as green light situation as it gets.  i just didn't pull the shot off.

I have never seen a pro putt from too far off that green.  You can't believe how fast the green is and how much your ball is pulled to the water. Larry Mize chipped it!

As for Merion #5.  I had about 40 yards in on my third shot a few weeks ago and happily putted it due to the firm and tight fairways.  (i.e. no rye grass or lake to run into)

I thought the grass looked long, but was thinking with the grass cut tighter as I have heard it is normally.   In truth, 130 yards might be a little out of my range for the putter.  I've never made one beyond 100 yards.   But from the looks of that angle and hill it sure would be tempting to try.   

As for Merion, there is supposed to be a creek/ditch on the left somewhere, but it may be insulated by a wide strip of thick rough.  Imagine how much fun the shot would be if the ball could run off the green and into the hazard. 

__________________________


As an aside, I recently read that, long ago, the hazard on the left played as a lateral for up to about 40 yards short of the green, then as a water hazard requiring a drop on the other side.   Is this still the case?



I don't know, I have only ever hit it into the creek off the tee...

Again, your hopelessly narrow range of abilities hampers your understanding of design.   


You try hitting it back in after dropping to the left...virtually impossible...

Yes that is the way I remember it, which is why I found the bit about the creek being played as water hazard so interesting.  With the rough as it is now, it seems impossible that it is still played this way.  I suppose one could go back all the way back on the line to the fourth fairway but with those big trees grown in, even this is probably practically impossible. 

The same article gave the impression that it was very common for golfer to end up in the hazard by the green.  Makes me wonder about how the course has changed over the years.  Imagine how different the hole must have been to allow for such a drop.

________________________________


DaveM:  green light means you try to get it close. Here, precisely because of the lie and the green break, that means aim it at the left center of the bunker with a slight draw, and try to ground hook it close.  If the lie was flat, and the green didn't break a little left, you take dead aim....there are chances for offense and places for defense.  To score, you have to take your shots on offense.  And you have to have the discipline to play like a puss when on defense.

Let me give you an example:  CPC #16....as you more than anybody knows,   ;D , that's not a good hole to play Brett Farve on.  Better to play nose tackle.

I understand what "green light" means.  There is more than one way to go at this particular pin, trying to get as close as possible.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
David,

This is only a guess, but it can be difficult to find a drop zone on the green-side "no closer to the hole" when the creek runs parallel to the green...perhaps this rule was put in to reduce conflict...

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