[Matt_Ward]

Joe B:

Inland places of stature -- see the listing of courses you mentioned -- if they were on or near an ocean location would be even higher rated than they are now.

I do agree with Pat on the effects that water-based courses have.

[Tom_Doak]

Hey, Patrick, I've been nice enough to volunteer that my oceanfront courses benefit immensely from having the oceanfront property to work with.  But it's not purely coincidence that I'm 3 for 3 in that situation.  There are other oceanfront courses which haven't fared as well.

[Chip Gaskins]

Doak is a leading architect in a specific genre spanning a very short period of time

John-

How many of Tom's courses have you played?

Thanks,
PhotoWhore

[Adam Clayman]

As a website full of traditionalists,

This has all the makings of a Shivas "Myth #69" thread.

This website is full of many things. Traditionalists doesn't even make the top 100.

[DMoriarty]

It was not my intent to insult Doak by saying that I doubt if he has created three of the top fifty golf courses ever built in the world.  I would not have a problem with an art critic saying that either Warhol, Wyeth or Pollock created one of the 50 greatest paintings of all time but believe anyone would scoff at the thought of including three of any one of those single artists.  Doak is a leading architect in a specific genre spanning a very short period of time and to say his work is so far above all the architects before him is insulting to anyone but the casual fan of the game and their work.

I don't think that the field of golf course design is nearly as deep as painters.  Not even close.  Plus the genre is relatively new and narrow in comparison.  It may be insulting to other designers I guess, but I don't think that is reason alone to discount the possibility.  If we modify your comparison even slightly, say to limit art by century, it is easy to imagine that a single artist might have more than one painting the 50 best, and that the vast majority of artists will not be represented at all.   

[JWinick]

Tom:

I don't doubt that you always give it your all.  But, there is something about an ocean setting that might inspire you even further.   

[JWinick]

I think a skilled critic of golf course architecture can distinguish between a great design on a great site versus a merely good design on a great site.   For example, I had the chance recently to play both Whistling Straits and Arcadia Bluffs. 

In my opinion, both have outstanding sites.  But, I felt that Whistling Straits was an outstanding design on a great site.  Arcadia Bluffs was a very average design/routing on a great site.   But, because it's on Lake Michigan, people think it's a great golf course.   Even with just an average design, I still think it's a solid course because of the site.   

[Jerry Kluger]

I have seen parts of Sebonack but I have not played it.  Surely it is a great piece of property and two highly respected architects colloaborated on the project yet it has not received the high rating that was perhaps anticipated.  Is there an objective reason for this or is it perhaps a case of expecting more in light of the quality of the site and being disappointed? Or does it say something about the individuals doing the ratings?

[Michael Blake]

To say that Doak has built 3 of the top 50 courses ever in the world is as ludicrous as saying that Fazio has built 14 of the best courses in America since 1960. 

The original quote was,  "Top 50 OCEANSIDE courses."

[John Kavanaugh]

Doak has three courses in the world top 50 according to the magazine where he remains a rater.

[DMoriarty]

Doak has three courses in the world top 50 according to the magazine where he remains a rater.

Which courses should take their place?

[Chip Gaskins]

From the Golf Magazine rating website...

To keep it fair, course architects and course owners on the committee can't vote on their own properties. In the end, the opinions of our staff editors are factored in as well.

http://www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,1650575,00.html

[Jay Flemma]

How could he be O - for - 20?  ballyneal's not near an ocean!

[Adam Clayman]

Jay, BN debuted at #83, I think.

[John Kavanaugh]

The three courses fit perfectly on the list where they sit considering the demographic for which it was created.  Do you realize that if the big money was in golf reporting instead of mainstream sports we would be listening to guys like Mike Lupica and Chris Berman on where to play.  Believe whatever you want but if you think that 3 of the top 50 golf courses ever built in the world were built by the same man in this decade then you fall right in line with every other casual golfer who reads the golfing tabloids.

[Jay Flemma]

Well I didn't see we were discussing the world...but I hope ballyneal rises.

[Carl Rogers]

O/T maybe

To me a number of threads talk around what I think are partly overlapping and partly distinct issues:

What would be the overall quality of the big big picture primordial landscape design if there was no golf course there?  ie the site for Pebble Beach (a good example) or Torrey Pines (a bad example) or a golf course overhanging the Grand Canyon...

What is necessary on some sites to impose or create a big big picture landscape design as a requirement to create a successful golf environment?  ie Whistling Straights, Rawls Course or Shadow Creek (I am sure there are more examples I am not aware of)

Does the imposition of golf over a so so quality landscape create a better overall landscape experience if golf was not present?  Are there heathland golf courses that exemplify this trait? or TOC? Pinehurst No. 2?

[JC Jones]

I think a skilled critic of golf course architecture can distinguish between a great design on a great site versus a merely good design on a great site.   For example, I had the chance recently to play both Whistling Straits and Arcadia Bluffs. 

In my opinion, both have outstanding sites.  But, I felt that Whistling Straits was an outstanding design on a great site.  Arcadia Bluffs was a very average design/routing on a great site.   But, because it's on Lake Michigan, people think it's a great golf course.   Even with just an average design, I still think it's a solid course because of the site.   

Cue the wrath of Brian Cenci...

[Brian Cenci]

I think a skilled critic of golf course architecture can distinguish between a great design on a great site versus a merely good design on a great site.   For example, I had the chance recently to play both Whistling Straits and Arcadia Bluffs. 

In my opinion, both have outstanding sites.  But, I felt that Whistling Straits was an outstanding design on a great site.  Arcadia Bluffs was a very average design/routing on a great site.   But, because it's on Lake Michigan, people think it's a great golf course.   Even with just an average design, I still think it's a solid course because of the site.   

Cue the wrath of Brian Cenci...

What elements about Whistling Straits is so much a better design than Arcadia Bluffs?  There's nothing at Whistling like #3 at Arcadia or an approach at Arcadia like #11.

[Greg Tallman]

Doak has three courses in the world top 50 according to the magazine where he remains a rater.

John,

Do you have a point or just stirring the pot? Do you know how the system works? Obviously Tom cannot vote his own works just as is the case of each of the other designers on the panel.

The only issue I have with the various architects being on the panel is the "voting down" of competitor's courses which happens. That is not aimed at Tom.

[Mike Hendren]

Doak is a leading architect in a specific genre spanning a very short period of time and to say his work is so far above all the architects before him is insulting to anyone but the casual fan of the game and their work.

Barney, perhaps your best post ever.  Unlike others I sense nothing derogatory toward Doak in this comment, just a solid observation.

Mike

[Mike Wagner]

JK -

I understand your point.  However, your delivery is awful and you do it all over this site.  Quite frankly, we are witnessing architecture with Doak's courses golfers will be talking about for the next couple hundred years.

Doesn't it make sense?  He learned the game it it's roots, obviously understands it, and is delivering.

I don't post often in here, but I finally had to say something about your delivery.  Even if you don't mean it offensively, it comes across that way - you're that club guy who always has to pick apart everything, thinking your opinion is always important.  It's not.

[Scott Weersing]

Ocean can help but it often leads to an overpriced and over designed course.

California courses on the ocean which are not great despite having ocean holes and ocean views-

Sandpiper
Monarch Bay

Morro Bay "Poor Man's Pebble Beach"
Spanish Bay

Half Moon Bay
Bodega Bay Golf Links

Torrey Pines North

It seems the California is much like Hawaii, lots of courses on the ocean that aren’t worth playing a second time.

The best new course on the ocean would have to be Pelican Hills, if you like Fazio courses. But it couldn't be that great if they had to redo it after 15 years.

[Ian_L]

I wouldn't call Monarch Bay an course "on the ocean."  It's by the bay but it never comes into play, and the views aren't exactly spectacular...

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