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Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« on: July 17, 2008, 07:49:23 PM »
This course was once among my absolute favorites in spite of being terribly conditioned.  Now the conditioning is better than as good as it gets for the amount of play.  I do have some issues with the maintenance meld.  Fescue above bunker lips, overall depth of rough, and standard width of fairways, and firm bunker bottoms with deep ball plugging soft faces.  On 16 it is better to be in the right fescue than literally 1 inch into the regualr rough.  These are not the issues that have lead to its decline.  It is the blatent Reesification of a Tilly masterpiece. 
    The latest destruction involves holes 3, 9, 11, and 13.  And before this there was the addition of a hideous left greenside bunker on 8, and the absolutley terrible green expansion to a depth of  47 yards of 14 with a Rees style bunker on the left.
    This is the new back tee on 3 makes the hole play about 230 from the middle.  This is a 39 yard deep green that kind of evokes a redan look.  This is not a redan, and balls hitting fairly deep into the green will long bounce over into brutal rough.

This is the 9th which was once a kind of breather hole, but always was a tough birdie with the front pins because the flatness of the green tended to make shots take a long first bounce.  This was when the hole played at 416, but offered a 270 yard carry tee ball to significantly cut the dogleg.  The hole is now offically 460, however, the measurement is not down the middle but along the left side of the fairway.  My laser measurement came out between 475 and 490--it was not very precise due to the contour of the fairway making it difficult to find the exact middle.

Does this bunker look like something that Tilly would have built?  What was wrong with the natural hillside contour?



For those  who were not too high on the pinched bottleneck bunker look that Rees created on the 18th, there is now a goundlevel version on the 11th.  The left bunker was extended out to the faiway and a new bunker on the right ( there could have been a bunker far out to the right that was hidden by fescue the past 20 years) pinches the fairway to about 22-24 yards in width.

Again, do these look Tilly or do they look Rees?

This is the new 13th that no longer has much of a dogleg.  In the pre-Rees days, it was a very scary tee shot from the 576 tee (which was mysteriously shortened on the card to 556 for the 2002 Open and afterwards) because balls hit slightly left could bounce hard down the falloff and into light fescue and maybe even the woods.
Though the rough has negated this possibility since 1998, the player usually saw the natural slope and was aware of this on the tee shot.  And now the most unnatural bunker Bethpage has among all the courses.

As you can observe, this is a deep fairway bunker.

And how built up and unnatural is this look?



« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 09:06:19 AM by Robert Mercer Deruntz »

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 08:25:12 PM »
Oh my god......that bunker on 9 is hideous!!
Rees ruins another hole.
With the back tee did he really need to do that? It was a blind shot if you didn't make it up the hill anyway.
I was not that freaked out by the bunker on 4 or the new part of the green on 14 but he just destroyed what was a fine hole.
Can we impeach?

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 08:28:18 PM »
Tell me this is PhotoShop trickery!

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 08:37:16 PM »
wow, wow, wow.  what the hell is that thing you call a bunker on #9?

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 09:22:35 PM »
If we knew how much money was spent to create this wonderful look, we might all vomit in unison.

Just what municipal golf needs to draw in more beginners.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 09:30:09 PM »
Jeezus...

I'm absolutely speechless.

You know, sometimes I think I'm being unfair on the guy in my criticisms, but after seeing this, I'm certain that I'm a softie.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 09:46:49 PM »
Yes, those "fingers" in the bunkers are so Rees-like. Case in point, Black Lake GC. looks like Mr. Jones wants to leave his mark at the Black. Too bad, 'ol Tilly is rolling in his grave! :o

Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 09:51:58 PM »
Deja Rees all over again.   Huntsville, PA


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 10:07:59 PM »
Who, or what committee or park commission has the authority to hire the archie?  Does Rees automatically get to play with this design by virtue of his semi-official role of 'the Open doctor'?   Where is the accountablility.  Doesn't anyone on that commission or oversight of that State Park facility have a clue on golf coure architecture? 

I've never been there to see it or play.  But, it doesn't take a genius to see a ego trip by Rees to mold this into his own creation and to hell with the history and consensus architectural masterpiece this was almost universally held to be. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 10:19:54 PM »
Is that a picture of Annandale GC?

Kyle Christensen

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 10:24:44 PM »
The new bunker on nine looks terrible. I saw pictures of that about 2 weeks ago and I couldn't believe it. The hole was great with the new longer tees because it made the drive a little tougher. That bunker is just a huge eye sore now and looks so unnatural. Looks like they built the same bunker that is 30 yards off number 4 and threw it in there. Hopefully someone comes to their senses quickly.




Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 10:26:48 PM »
It's the fairway bunker (or whatever you call that) on #9 that gets me...I am with RJ Daley...where/who has the ability to approve this?

John Kavanaugh

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2008, 11:31:56 PM »
The Black Course is an extremely difficult course which we recommend only for highly skilled golfers.  Can you guys read?  It looks to me that all Rees has done is keep up with the mission of the course.  If I am ever in New York and choose to play a modern US Open test instead of an outdated museum I'd be dissapointed at anything less.  Get over it...Bethpage has plenty of other courses that suit the taxpayers just fine.  The Black is like the trophy wife who is on your arm for show...out of your league but yours for the night.

We'll never know but there is good evidence that Tillie would have done the same.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 11:35:21 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 11:35:31 PM »
or Berbeck.

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2008, 11:44:53 PM »
Why does it seem that there is a constant plea for easier golf courses on this forum?  Even on a course hosting the U.S. Open next year.

Robert, I know that you are a very skilled golfer.  However, the most intriguing architecture for you may not be the best for the USGA's or Bethpage's goals.  If I'm not mistaken, one of the common denominators on this site is the desire for strategic design.  An important component of strategy is that hazards are penalizing.  For this reason the bunker on 9 looks interesting.  You can no longer scoot a tee shot down the left side; you must challenge the bunker or play away from it.  The hole is harder, but it could still be fun and strategic.  If you play the appropriate tee box and forget about the par, 9 looks like it could be a lot of fun.  I'll be looking forward to it on my next visit.

Additionally, I don't understand the complaint with 3.  Why should the fact that it's not a Redan mean anything?  Realistically, playing that hole from 230 in any competition other than the U.S. Open would be pretty brutal, and probably the wrong decision for the tournament committee.  However, for a good player, the 230 tee box could be a lot of fun.  Do you try to hit the heroic 230 drop shot onto the green (pretty unlikely for me) or do you try to run it up on the right and get it up and down if you miss?

If your complaint is that Rees is trying to make all his designs and redesigns look the same then I can agree with you there.  My biggest problem with Reesification is that all his greens seem to be made up of large flat spots divided by dramatic ridges.  There is very little interesting countour.  Bethpage in particular has fairly flat, boring greens thanks to Rees.  I wish someone competent could give Bethpage and Torrey a makeover on the greens.  It's very sad to see a course that is so fun tee-to-green be so dull on the putting surface.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2008, 11:51:48 PM »
Anthony
The person who generated this thread is local professional golfer on LI, who I understand is a very strong golfer. The Black and difficulty are synonomous. I think the complaints surround the loss of Tillinghast at the gain of Rees Jones.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2008, 12:08:43 AM »
Anthony
The person who generated this thread is local professional golfer on LI, who I understand is a very strong golfer. The Black and difficulty are synonomous. I think the complaints surround the loss of Tillinghast at the gain of Rees Jones.

A local professional golfer...He should have said something.  Somebody send Mike Davis a memo before all is lost.

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2008, 12:10:24 AM »
Tom,

I am aware of Robert's playing ability, which I noted above. (It's not that I am a fanatical follower of competitive golf, but he had mentioned on another thread a while back that he had qualified for a U.S. Open.  A quick Google search yields his appearance in the 98 Open and 2 at Westchester.  Robert, I don't intend to be stalking you; I was just getting my facts straight.)

 I do understand and agree with the Rees v. Tilly sentiment.  I just didn't understand some of the other comments being made on this thread.  Thanks for the clarification on your part.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2008, 12:31:31 AM »
Here is a nice article where Rees defends the course as Tilly.  Even after what was the great success at Torrey the critics on this site choose to pooh pooh Rees and give all the credit to the guy who set out the tee markers.  I do hope you don't believe that Rees came in and flattened the greens just as I hope you don't believe that they are not interesting.  The link.. http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jun/12/sports/sp-course12

As far as the look of the bunkers these are as true to the origninal design as any restored set in the country.  Rees just doesn't try to con people with smoke and mirror fluff.

Jim Nugent

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2008, 12:35:26 AM »
I thought Rees just carries out the wishes of the USGA.  Rees is the tool, the USGA the brains behind the changes.   

Mike Sweeney

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2008, 06:18:24 AM »
If I'm not mistaken, one of the common denominators on this site is the desire for strategic design.  An important component of strategy is that hazards are penalizing.  For this reason the bunker on 9 looks interesting.  You can no longer scoot a tee shot down the left side; you must challenge the bunker or play away from it.  The hole is harder, but it could still be fun and strategic.  If you play the appropriate tee box and forget about the par, 9 looks like it could be a lot of fun.  I'll be looking forward to it on my next visit.

I would argue the opposite. Without the bunker, it was very difficult on that tee to figure out where to hit that shot. It was a great awkward look. Now the decision is made for you because clearly you do not want to be in that bunker. Be short, be long of it by a safe margin or be way right. Without the bunker there I often got stuck below that hill (where the bunker is) which is so steep it forced you to hit wedge. Without the obvious penalty of that bunker, it suckered you into trying to cut that corner.

It is an old course on the US Open rotation, clearly Rees in not making these decisions in a vacuum. Robert may be over the top on a few of the changes, but I would NOT put in that bunker on 9.

That said the course is much better that the pre-Rees course.


Thomas MacWood

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2008, 07:54:44 AM »
Tom,

I am aware of Robert's playing ability, which I noted above. (It's not that I am a fanatical follower of competitive golf, but he had mentioned on another thread a while back that he had qualified for a U.S. Open.  A quick Google search yields his appearance in the 98 Open and 2 at Westchester.  Robert, I don't intend to be stalking you; I was just getting my facts straight.)

 I do understand and agree with the Rees v. Tilly sentiment.  I just didn't understand some of the other comments being made on this thread.  Thanks for the clarification on your part.

Anthony
What don't you understand or agree with? I am a big fan of Tilly's work and Bethpage-Black was one of his most important designs. The course had more Tilly when it was considered a broken-down dump. I understand the thrill in seeing it revived and cared for, but as the years go by it has become more Rees and much less Tillinghast. That is not a good exchange IMO.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2008, 08:18:34 AM »

I understand the thrill in seeing it revived and cared for, but as the years go by it has become more Rees and much less Tillinghast. That is not a good exchange IMO.


Tom,

Not a good exchange for who?  Does the glory of the Black bring in more funds that help preserve historical design on the other courses.  Would you agree the new Black would make Moses proud and is a tribute to his vision.  What I like is that these huge bunkers have the feel of massive New York infrastructure.

Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2008, 08:27:11 AM »
Thanks Mike, that is an interesting perspective.  I will be very curious to see how the hole plays when I get a chance to see it next.  If you are correct in saying that you had to hit a wedge from that spot, which I don't recall as being as severe as you describe, then the bunker makes little difference on the hole.  It seems then that you are arguing that the more subtle hazard is the more interesting one.  Would this be your view if Rees' bunkers were more visually appealing (or looked more like a Tilly bunker) ?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural decline of Black (photographic evidence)
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2008, 08:32:49 AM »
Moses?

Be careful, John.  We native New Yorkers (at least those of us from upstate NY) have disdain for Robert Moses.  Even to this day...

You mention massive NY infrasturcture.  But this is a state park, where I think blending nature should rule the day.   Why not build mounds that look like the Space Needle at Chambers Bay ;)

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