Annandale GC (Watson/Bell/Silva)(pics)

[David Kelly]

David,
I can't tell much from the 1910 pics, the openness throws me. You are right in that I would think the golf course area in the foreground of the first two pictures is almost certainly gone.

Jon,
Do you have a full picture of the tract map (bottom pic)?  That would tell us a lot about what is still there from pre-134.  As it is now, the freeway runs along and touches the north side of Colorado Blvd. in the area shown on the map.  Going north from the triangle area where Colorado meets Ave 64 and Melrose you would eventually run into the area where the 3rd green and 4th tee is now.  However I would say that the freeway is at least five times as wide as Colorado Blvd. so you can see a lot of land was lost.

Here is a satellite map that shows the same area that is shown on the 1929 Bell tract map. It was taken during Silva's project obviously.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=annadale+pasadena&ie=UTF8&ll=34.141806,-118.177185&spn=0.006145,0.009334&t=h&z=17

[Tom_Doak]

I stopped in to see this course about five or six years ago when they were trying to decide what to do with it.  From what I remember of it, it looks like Brian did a great job.  The course was very cramped in spots, and I'm impressed that he got them to let him take down some of the trees and wipe out an ugly little pond on one of the finishing holes -- I think it was to the right of the green on #16.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Early comments from the older members is that the course has become too difficult.  There are more bunkers, they are closer to the green and they are deeper than previous.  The greens also have more undulation.  One thought I had on the bunkers is that they all look the same.  Does that bother anyone else looking at the pictures?
The 6th is for me far and away the best hole on the course.  One of the better par 4's in SoCal.  How Silva convinced them to take out many trees should be considered.  More need to be removed, but it was a good start.
One last thought.  There are different grasses for the fairways and rough, thus it was planted that way and the irrigation was designed that way.  I hope they don't want to change any fairway dimensions soon, it could be expensive.
David Kelly is right about the back nine, you just hope you can find your ball after striking it.

[Kalen Braley]

Lynn,

Regarding the bunkers, while I like thier placement on the course I too thought they all looked the same with those same loopy edges.  Kind of looks like the Christmas cookies that my Grandma used to make. 

I'd also add that in some places they looked a bit overdone in terms of quantity.  Why not just make one or two big bunkers, instead of a bunch of smaller ones.

Does look like a very fun course to play with plenty of strategy and risk reward.

[DMoriarty]

It is tough

David,
I can't tell much from the 1910 pics, the openness throws me. You are right in that I would think the golf course area in the foreground of the first two pictures is almost certainly gone.

Jon,
Do you have a full picture of the tract map (bottom pic)?  That would tell us a lot about what is still there from pre-134.  As it is now, the freeway runs along and touches the north side of Colorado Blvd. in the area shown on the map.  Going north from the triangle area where Colorado meets Ave 64 and Melrose you would eventually run into the area where the 3rd green and 4th tee is now.  However I would say that the freeway is at least five times as wide as Colorado Blvd. so you can see a lot of land was lost.

Here is a satellite map that shows the same area that is shown on the 1929 Bell tract map. It was taken during Silva's project obviously.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=annadale+pasadena&ie=UTF8&ll=34.141806,-118.177185&spn=0.006145,0.009334&t=h&z=17

The Bell Jr. letter above mentions that the clubhouse in 1919 was South of Colorado Blvd, but I cannot figure out where Colorado Blvd might have been in the photograph.    I think Colorado Blvd would have existed, even in 1910. 
_________________________________________________

The Bunkers. 

It is hard to say from pictures, but at first glance I am not enamored with the look of the bunkers either.  It seems a little like the fancy edges might be just grown into normal bunker shells, so the look is superficially there, but the Watson/Bell bunkers are not.    Harbottle is doing something similar at Brookside down the hill, only he uses different basic bunker shell to start.   Fancy edges do not a Bell bunker make.   

Again, I am just going by the photos, so I could be wrong.  What do you think Jon?

[Cliff Hamm]

Is there another architect who designs the mix of private courses and affordable publics with the quality of Brian Silva?

[Jon Spaulding]

David,
I can't tell much from the 1910 pics, the openness throws me. You are right in that I would think the golf course area in the foreground of the first two pictures is almost certainly gone.

Jon,
Do you have a full picture of the tract map (bottom pic)?  That would tell us a lot about what is still there from pre-134.  As it is now, the freeway runs along and touches the north side of Colorado Blvd. in the area shown on the map.  Going north from the triangle area where Colorado meets Ave 64 and Melrose you would eventually run into the area where the 3rd green and 4th tee is now.  However I would say that the freeway is at least five times as wide as Colorado Blvd. so you can see a lot of land was lost.

Here is a satellite map that shows the same area that is shown on the 1929 Bell tract map. It was taken during Silva's project obviously.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=annadale+pasadena&ie=UTF8&ll=34.141806,-118.177185&spn=0.006145,0.009334&t=h&z=17

I took a photo of the tract map but it came out illegible....and I've no clue how to use photoshop or other stuff to tidy it up.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the bunkering ruins it. The actual underlying course looks good though.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

A photo in a 1921 Golf Illustrated shows the 18th at Annandale as circular green perhaps, 2,500 square feet. If I knew how to convert a .tif to .jpg, I'd post it.


Anthony

[Jon Spaulding]

It is tough

David,
I can't tell much from the 1910 pics, the openness throws me. You are right in that I would think the golf course area in the foreground of the first two pictures is almost certainly gone.

Jon,
Do you have a full picture of the tract map (bottom pic)?  That would tell us a lot about what is still there from pre-134.  As it is now, the freeway runs along and touches the north side of Colorado Blvd. in the area shown on the map.  Going north from the triangle area where Colorado meets Ave 64 and Melrose you would eventually run into the area where the 3rd green and 4th tee is now.  However I would say that the freeway is at least five times as wide as Colorado Blvd. so you can see a lot of land was lost.

Here is a satellite map that shows the same area that is shown on the 1929 Bell tract map. It was taken during Silva's project obviously.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&q=annadale+pasadena&ie=UTF8&ll=34.141806,-118.177185&spn=0.006145,0.009334&t=h&z=17

The Bell Jr. letter above mentions that the clubhouse in 1919 was South of Colorado Blvd, but I cannot figure out where Colorado Blvd might have been in the photograph.    I think Colorado Blvd would have existed, even in 1910. 
_________________________________________________

The Bunkers. 

It is hard to say from pictures, but at first glance I am not enamored with the look of the bunkers either.  It seems a little like the fancy edges might be just grown into normal bunker shells, so the look is superficially there, but the Watson/Bell bunkers are not.    Harbottle is doing something similar at Brookside down the hill, only he uses different basic bunker shell to start.   Fancy edges do not a Bell bunker make.   

Again, I am just going by the photos, so I could be wrong.  What do you think Jon?

Enamored, no.....that's reserved for the Crystal Downs and Ballyneals of the world. But....I do prefer the look of these bunkers to most offerings in our neck of the woods by a wide margin....perhaps a "relative" satisfaction. Have a hard time taking issue as this is marketed as a renovation, and I have no datum on the original design. I do prefer the boldness of the bunkering at say an LACC over some of what I saw at Annandale, where many were too shallow to be considered a hazard....would rather be in most fairway bunkers than in that rough. The greenside bunkering seemed to have ample depth but I never visited. There are a few spots where they went overboard....in appearance and quantity, but in general they are well placed within the site.

[DMoriarty]

Enamored, no.....that's reserved for the Crystal Downs and Ballyneals of the world. But....I do prefer the look of these bunkers to most offerings in our neck of the woods by a wide margin....perhaps a "relative" satisfaction. Have a hard time taking issue as this is marketed as a renovation, and I have no datum on the original design. I do prefer the boldness of the bunkering at say an LACC over some of what I saw at Annandale, where many were too shallow to be considered a hazard....would rather be in most fairway bunkers than in that rough. The greenside bunkering seemed to have ample depth but I never visited. There are a few spots where they went overboard....in appearance and quantity, but in general they are well placed within the site.

I am probably just too jaded.   In some of the photos I think they look really good.  Some, not as much.  It could just be that I am looking at photos, but some seem sort of two dimensional, like despite the edges the bunkers are basically saucers.  I guess I think of the edges on Bell bunkers as somewhat dictated by the roll of the land.   

But it definitely looks way better than it did.   And like I said, some of them look really good in photos.

[David Kelly]

Its a sign of Billy Bell's great ability that his bunkers are so hard to replicate.  The pictures I have seen of his original bunker work seem to be a cross between what Silva did so well at Annandale and what Harbottle is trying with ( to me) less success at Brookside.

I agree that the bunkering at AGC, while somewhat repetitive, is a big step up from what they had before.  But that is based on the pictures and course drivebys.

[Tim Gerrish]

Lynn,

Regarding the bunkers, while I like thier placement on the course I too thought they all looked the same with those same loopy edges.  Kind of looks like the Christmas cookies that my Grandma used to make. 

I'd also add that in some places they looked a bit overdone in terms of quantity.  Why not just make one or two big bunkers, instead of a bunch of smaller ones.

Does look like a very fun course to play with plenty of strategy and risk reward.

Brian loves Christmas cookies...  Send him some.

I think you'll find there is a fair amount of topo change in many of the areas that would make creating one or two bunkers very awkward. 

Lester...  Brian got this bunker style from me!!

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

[Thomas MacWood]

Wee Tony
Fabulous pictures - I have to admit Wee Billie's look very similar to Wee Brian's newer versions.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Mr. MacWood:

What are you implying?

Anthony

[Thomas MacWood]

Nothing. I just like using Wee.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

It would appear from the pictures that Silva's team did a great job of copying Bell bunkers at Annandale.  But I still say they all look too much alike, both Silva's and Bell's.  In any event it will be interesting to see how they evolve.  Early pictures of Riviera show some of this same look, and they have evolved greatly, both in appearance, deeper and I think better.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Anthony. Great photos.   The look is definitely the same.  I still would really like to see how they incorporate into the texture of the surrounds in person, but it looks as if I might have been too critical in my first posts.

Tim Garrish,

Were you involved in the project?  If so, congratulations!   And if so, and if it is not too much trouble, it would be greatly appreciated if you or someone could tell us a bit about the process you went through with the bunkers.   Thanks in advance.

David.

[Jon Spaulding]

Here is a photo of the 4th taken at an oblique angle, similar to the one shown in Anthony's article. The top photo is the 3rd, the bottom looks like the 10th.

[David Kelly]

Here is a photo of the 4th taken at an oblique angle, similar to the one shown in Anthony's article. The top photo is the 3rd, the bottom looks like the 10th.

So similar in fact that I would be willing to bet a dual membership to Liberty National and Bayonne that it is the EXACT SAME photo. "Wee" Billy Bell indeed.

You guys should examine the pictures more closely...unless you are willing to believe that Silva and Co. did the most perfect restoration in gca history. Even down to restoring the trees to their exact same height.

[DMoriarty]

It may not be the exact same photo, unless someone spent some time photoshopping in shadows.  But I think you are right about it being a picture taken recently.  Take a look at the photo of the 5th.   Same tree but wrong green.

I just took a look at the Feb 1929 issue of Golf Illustrated.  No article.

What's up?

[David Kelly]

It may not be the exact same photo, unless someone spent some time photoshopping in shadows.  But I think you are right about it being a picture taken recently.  Take a look at the photo of the 5th.   Same tree but wrong green.

I just took a look at the Feb 1929 issue of Golf Illustrated.  No article.

What's up?

No those are the EXACT same pictures, even #5 (the depth of field has been changed).  I'll even throw in a Gulfstream G650 in order to get out to Liberty and Bayonne if I am wrong.

Read the copy, "Some of the more estinguished guests..." "Those arriving by motor car..."

You may have been too busy screwing around with your iPhone last night at dinner to notice but you were in the presence of the author of that 1929 Golf Illustrated article.

[Jon Spaulding]

The talents of the La Habra Postcard Co continue to amaze....top notch. I had heard a rumor that he was not too pleased with the final results at AGC. Any specific comments of interest at the Derby?

[Forrest Richardson]

Could someone post Brian Curley's work in the form of images ?

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