[John Foley]

Finally had the chance to play Leatherstocking yesterday and to say I was thrilled would be an understatement. Some of the best green sites I've seen. To think that this course dates from 1909 is just amazing.

Did some looking through the archives I found a few items and wanted to pose some questions:

- Bob Cupp is working with the club a long term master plan. It appears complete. The bunkers look new and the greens are all in fantastic shape. Does anyone know if his work is complete?

-Did Emmett have a set of plans? Some of the mounding work around the greens (especially #8) was fantastic. Is that Emmett or Cupp's interpetation?

-Saw some references to Raynor doing some work there. Has anyone confirmed this or is is just speculation?

I would highly recommend a trip to Cooperstown to see Leatherstocking. Anyone on this board who is also a baseball fan should definetly schedule a pilgrimage. You will not be disapointed.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Some prior threads with pictures:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30908.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34714.0.html

[John Blain]

John,

Are you sure Bob Cupp is the guy doing the Master plan? I was told by someone at the club that Cupp was hired and immediately wanted to make "major" changes to the golf course and the Clark family (who owns the course) didn't exactly like what they were hearing so they got rid of him and hired Bruce Hepner instead. Hepner has expanded some tees, rebuilt some bunkers and done some other minor things to the golf course.

On a nice day in the summer or fall it doesn't get a whole lot better than Leatherstocking.

John

[George_Bahto]

John Foley: you said:

"Saw some references to Raynor doing some work there. Has anyone confirmed this or is it just speculation"


John, that reference was about a long time super at Leatherstocking who did a lot of work in house, not Seth Raynor.

I visited the course about five years before any "restoration" work was done and was totally enthralled with the course.

I got there about 2 hours after a torrential down pour of about 3 hours. The super Bernie Bannis showed me how great the drainage worked - he said most of it was original.

For those who have never been there, the side of a mountain drains toward the lake but the golf course is in between.

Water was pouring out of the large drainage pipes into Lake Otesego.

Also at the time, Susan Clarke was "converting" the grand hotel into a 5-star!!

Interesting note:

Susan Clarke's father was a founder at National. He was also the lawyer for Isaac Singer (sewing machine fame).

One of Singer's sons, Paris Singer, was the force behind the Everglades Club in FL as well as the Winter Club in North Palm Beach in FL, which was Seth Raynor final design (it became North Palm Beach CC)

[John Foley]

John - I read that in an old post. Did not talk to anyone at the course - it was a pretty busy AM. I hope Tom D chimes in if it is Bruce. Whoever it is has done a great job

George - Thanks - Now if that could have been Seth's long lost son that would have been a story 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I was at Leatherstocking about six weeks ago and there are definitely features that belong to Emmet. The 9th green is a reverse of the first at Dudley Hill, an Emmet design,  but without a doubt someone else has had a hand in the second 9 and I see more Banks than Raynor. I could be wrong.

Bob Cupp did the bunker renovation there and my understanding is the fairways of two holes near the lake were raised because of drainage issues. Also, the third hole, now a par-3, was originally a par-4 playing from a different angle. Apparently the old tee is visible to the left of the fourth fairway. The original tee for the 10th, is past the 9th green along the wall near the road creating a straight uphill tee shot. The newer tee is up and to the left of the 9th green, creating a dogleg left. I believe that changes to three and 10 came much later, perhaps in the 1950s.

Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Bruce Hepner did some work with them about ten or twelve years ago, but they were moving pretty slowly on it, and so he didn't do very much.  Mr. Cupp got his foot in the door when they were upgrading the hotel and thought they needed a "name" architect to renovate the course, although I think they cut back his first proposal to make more changes. 

I haven't seen the course in twenty years so I don't know how much has changed.  It was a pretty cool course back when I played it in college, before anyone had restored anything.

[Mike_Cirba]

Although the course was originally built and opened in 1909, I subsequently learned that Dev Emmett made signifcant revisions to bring the course to its present form around 1920.  It is absolutely wonderful and very firmly esconced in my Top 100 Classic courses.

It is also VASTLY underrated.

There used to be a fellow here named JMorgan (James) who had done a lot of research on Emmett.

I haven't seen him here in some time.   I'm hoping he's writing a book on Emmett instead.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Mike:

Where did you get the information about Emmet returning in 1920? The hotel, which has some wonderful old newspaper clippings, has no history on the golf course.

I find it interesting that Emmet was a member of the Otsego Golf Club on the north end of the lake, which dates to 1890s.

Tom:

Sorry to hear Bruce bailed on the job. I'm guessing he would have done a much better job than Cupp.

Anthony

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

Where did you get the information about Emmet returning in 1920? The hotel, which has some wonderful old newspaper clippings, has no history on the golf course.

I find it interesting that Emmet was a member of the Otsego Golf Club on the north end of the lake, which dates to 1890s.

Tom:

Sorry to hear Bruce bailed on the job. I'm guessing he would have done a much better job than Cupp.

Anthony

Tony,

I believe it was Golf Illustrated, which did a story of the "new Otesaga Hotel golf course" with some neat pics, including the 18th.

I'll see if I can't find it.

The reason I remember is that I was stunned to think that a course this good could have been opened prior to NGLA without any fanfare.   Turns out it wasn't.

p.s.  Whoever did the restoration work did a formidable job.   I was extremely impressed.

[JNC Lyon]

I had to bump this thread up because I played Leatherstocking for the first time today and I wanted to make some comments.

The course exceeded the expectations I had going in to be sure.  I was very impressed by the bunker work all the way around.  If this was indeed Bob Cupp's work he did an excellent job. 

Although the greens and some fairways were recently aerated, I thoroughly enjoyed the experience.  The first non-tee shot I hit from a level lie came on the 16th hole.  The fairways are very crumpled and follow the slope off the mountainside and down to the lake.  The mountain holes (9-12) across the street are all fantastic, with four superb greensites.  13-15, between the mountain and lake holes, might be less exciting at other courses, but for me they were three of the most interesting holes on the course, with wild fairway contours (13 and 14 are classic links-type holes with the hog's back fairways) and a great punchbowl green at the 15th.

4 is one of the best short par fives I've seen in a while with a beautiful over-the-rise tee shot and 'en echelon' bunkering to affect the second shot perfectly.

16-18 are highly memorable and dramatic (especially the boomerang finisher), but they might have fewer classic architectural features than the first 15.

Overall, I'd put this in a top five of favorite upstate courses along with Oak Hill, Crag Burn, Monroe, and Teugega.

[Jay Flemma]

Emmet returned and did a second nine in 1919.  From Dan Spooner, the club pro:

"A first nine were built by Emmet in 1909, ( 1-7, 16 and 18), along with the Otesaga Hotel.  Emmet designed a second nine in 1919."

[John Foley]

John

You sure had a great day to see it! I have been trying to get back over and may try next week.

Agreed on the rumpled fairways / uneven lies and the great par 5 4th. The bunker work on that hole along it makes for some great architecture.

How did you like the 8th green? It's one of my favorites I've seen in a long time.

The two times I played this year (rained out on a planned 3rd) I had no camera. I need to get some pics and post them as it's truly a wonderful course.

[JNC Lyon]

The 8th was actually not one of my favorite holes.  It had great crumpling in the fairway, but there was no clear spot that provided the best angle of approach.  The green was neat, but there were a few I liked better.  The punchbowl at the 15th was my favorite green on the course, but I also loved 3, 7, 10, 12, and 14.

[John Foley]

Thats why I like the 8th green so much, trying to make par after missing it and being in a swale, hollow, bunker, side of a mound. Sooo many options.

The 10th green is great too and I loved the short 12th. The first is pretty cool especially if the pin is on the left top shelf.

That 15th green was pretty cool punchbowl.

Hmm... If Raynor wasn't involved why is there a Punchbowl there???

Oh that's right, Emmett was buddies w/ CB Mac & the gang...

[TEPaul]

"Interesting note:
Susan Clarke's father was a founder at National. He was also the lawyer for Isaac Singer (sewing machine fame)."


Uncle GeorgeB:

A bit of minor family and generational house-keeping here:

The man you refer to above as a founder of National was Edward S. Clark (no e on the end of the name). He was the grandson of Edward S. Clark who was not Isaac Singer's lawyer exactly but his original 50% partner in the Singer Sewing Machine Company. NGLA founding member Edward S. Clark's brother F. Ambrose Clark (known by all as "Brose") was one of the biggest deals in American throughbred horse racing and definitely the biggest deal in the history of American Steeplechase racing. He was a very big deal in NYC and certainly on Long Island and definitely in Aiken SC as well as I guess Cooperstown, as were most of the Singers and Clarks over the last century or more.

I went to St Mark's School with one Alfred Corning Clark (which is a name through the Clark generations) and at some point in school some of us became aware that Alfred wasn't just rich he was REALLY rich.

Al was a pretty cocky guy and one day he came breezing down the hall towards me and as we passed in the corridor I said: "Hey Al, why in the hell are you so danged rich?" That made him do about a triple take but he kept on breezing down the corridor and when he got to the end he wheeled around and yelled all the way back down the corridor at me. "Singer Sewing Machine, Pal, have you ever heard of it?"



(I shoulda said: " I don't sew Al, but I think I've heard of it.").


PS:
In a real way guys like Devereaux Emmet and C.B. Macdonald weren't just their architects they were very much part of their crowd. Big timers like the Singers and Clarks weren't just really rich they were really smart too and as you and I know, they knew damn well too that if they got guys like Emmet and Macdonald to help design them golf courses they didn't even have to pay them for it.   

[Jeff_Mingay]

PS:
In a real way guys like Devereaux Emmet and C.B. Macdonald weren't just their architects they were very much part of their crowd. Big timers like the Singers and Clarks weren't just really rich they were really smart too and as you and I know, they knew damn well too that if they got guys like Emmet and Macdonald to help design them golf courses they didn't even have to pay them for it.   

Ha! That's great, Tom.

And, thanks. I've just figured out how to make my mark in golf architecture: Befriend the smartest, wealthiest golfers throughout the world and let them know I work gratis

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