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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2010, 11:29:47 AM »
Joel,

I asked one of assistant pros about walking. He said that not many  attempt to walk there. You must be in better shape than most.

Do you think ithe course is too difficult for a mid handicapper?

« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 11:32:04 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joel Zuckerman

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2010, 11:44:31 AM »
Funny you mention the assistant pro.  My buddy and I were wavering on whether or not to walk, and the asst. we spoke with saidmost players ride, but it was doable.  Had he been more discouraging, we might have relented and took carts, but he gave us a glimmer of hope, so to speak, so we went for it.

I took a look at those YouTube videos just now to refresh my memory.  I think it is pretty tough for a 15--ish handicap or higher.  It's what I call a "white knuckle," or "grip-tightener" of a GC....in the Pine Valley mode or Crumpin Fox mode...so many shots that strike fear and trepidation in the heart of a golfer that doesn't have too much confidence to begin with....

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2010, 12:48:13 PM »
KBM,

I am not a rater for GW, GD or even the Reading Eagle.

I did like some of the holes as noted above. I thought 10 was a good drop shot par3. Like Mike Cirba, I thought the short par4 12th was a good hole requiring some thought off the tee. I did mention that 11,the par4 cape was the best of the par4s on the course IMO. It's a very good hole.Likewise, I mentioned that 1 and 9 are good solid but difficult holes.1 is not an easy opener so you get a clue as to what awaits on the rest of the course. Rees didn't fool around there. I even liked the long par5 13th and the shorter par5 8th hole.The par5 7th is a good hole too if you're a long knocker off the tee. Do you disagree that 17 is a difficult hole? There were just too many forced carries on the course given the property Rees had to deal with. I don't know what his marching orders were but it's a very difficult site,as you know. The ground game is just not there at LR. It's a very challenging course-see the ratings/slope.

I mentioned my former club- Commonwealth. When I joined there I was returning from a long hiatus from golf and could barely break 100. I worked on my game and got my handicap down and even broke 80 there a few times before I left. I learned course management. LR is the same type of course- difficult and challenging. The white tees there can be managed by a mid handicapper. The scorecard tee suggestions are way off IMO. It takes a lot of plays , just like many other courses. The 5 handicapper in my group of age 60+ golfers played a great game to shoot his 77. The rest of us, including a member at Lancaster CC who wanted to see what LR was all about, struggled. It was a very humid day. I did mention that I would like to return to LR on a nice crisp fall day. I haven't given up on the course. Maybe I like a challenge.

I reported what a friend emailed to me. I didn't write that I agreed. I just think that a single digit handicapper would derive more enjoyment from playing there.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 12:51:03 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Rory Connaughton

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2010, 02:10:15 PM »
I have only played LedgeRock once and enjoyed my game. The course was well conditioned and on an individual basis I enjoyed the majority of the holes.  The routing seems intended to provide as many downhill tee shots and views as possible.  Steve, do you think the location of the practice facility on ground which I recall as being very good golfing terrain created routing problems?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2010, 02:41:43 PM »
Rory,

Indeed, the course was well conditioned. The location of the pro shop/driving range/practice area is problematic. The land there seemed suitable for a few holes but I don't know where else on the property the range could have been placed.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2010, 04:40:19 PM »
The current location of the range/learning center is certainly not problematic and certainly a better solution to the original routing where the driving range was planned to be where 7 & 8 currently run. There were two holes running up and down it's current location along with a par three where the maintenance barn is now. Knowing the land that was there, the holes that would have ended up on the current range would have been squeezed in and not as good as 7 & 8, which imo are two better (and more interesting) holes than anything that would have been place in the dr location.

Our only critism is that we are too tough. It can be a pretty tough course, but it is also very fair with the targets, be it greens or fairways, generous and Rees made every effort to soften the landing areas and make them as fair as possible. As mentioned above, it does offer a lot of intimadating shots (carries) that make it seem tougher than it is, however one does need to play the tees most suitable to their handicap (although it's not always easy to move up a set of tees ;)) and while still a challenge, it is fun.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 04:45:50 PM by Alan FitzGerald »
Golf construction & maintenance are like creating a masterpiece; Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa's eyes first..... You start with the backdrop, layer on the detail and fine tune the finished product into a masterpiece

Matt_Davenport

Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2010, 06:40:31 PM »
Alan,
You're not inferring that EGO gets in the way of moving up... Nah, didn't think so. My father-in-law would start at the 150 yard marker if I let him... Maybe I should. LedgeRock is a visually dramatic course that causes the player to think, maybe too much, about what lies in front of them. The opportunity I've had to play there (a few years ago) definitely left me wanting to come back for another go round. Yes, there are plenty of places where you don't want to be, but there is also plenty of room to play safely if you are managing your game. I would say that if you manage your game you can score well at Ledgerock, because you'll be hitting greens. Once on the green, all you have to do is putt, right? Alan does an amazing job providing great playing conditions. We should all be so lucky to have such a Supt.

Dan Herrmann

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2010, 09:00:01 PM »
Alan and Matt - good for you - be proud of your baby!

(PS -  GCA outing is always a great idea ;) ;)  )

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2010, 10:37:38 PM »
Alan, Matt

I still think the proper tees for any one not a single digit hadicap are the whites,  regardless of what the scorecard says.Anyone who is in the single digits should play the greens or beyond unless they are seniors whose boom boom days are behind them.

No doubt that all the forced carries(how many are there?) and blind shots are visually intimidating. The course is tough and challenging but manageable,I would think, the more one plays there. 

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Pete Kowalinski

Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2010, 02:11:46 PM »
There were several routings considered before the current built course was decided on.  Rees Jones works with his clients to make the best possible course/facility that he can to please the membership.  The practice area was to be 2 golf holes, #6 and #7 as it pertained to that particular routing, but the membership wanted zero golf holes next to the busy route 625 that runs the length of the south side of the property.  The current #11 is the only hole close to that road.  The current routing not only created a much better practice and learning facility, but also got rid of some of the holes that were originally designed and were less desireable as Alan's description of the old #9 set between the maintenance offices and barn.  I don't think anyone can really comment on the routing or the difficulty of the site unless they went through the construction process that me and Alan mostly, went through.  We moved, and Alan correct me if I'm wrong, over 700,000 cy of material.  The site that anyone plays and comments on now is so much different than how it was originally found.  To say that the location of the practice facility/pro shop is problematic needs to be put into perspective.  It is a temporary facility constructed to get us through this early phase until a clubhouse is built when we are ready to sustain the costs. It was bult in a place where members and their guests could practice without car traffic and/or golf traffic being disruptive.  I don't know if I would ever hear anyone complain about the cart ride to Pine Valley's and Merion's range and calling those facilities "problematic".  The important thing I have taken from this thread over the past 2 years is that you can't please everyone, especially all who do not know the complete story of this project and the intent, which was to create a course and facility for it's member's enjoyment.  If you don't like it or have to find yourself being critical of it in a public forum every time you play.......then don't join the membership and don't look for another opportunity to come back to play as a guest.   

Pete Kowalinski

Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2010, 02:13:53 PM »
And Alan...you should be proud of "your baby" because I know that we, the members and staff at LedgeRock, are all proud of you and the job that you did and continue to do to make the course what our members want it to be....from construction to the present!!

Rory Connaughton

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2010, 10:18:55 AM »
Alan

  Thanks for the information regarding the location of the practice facility.  If the choice was between present location and the location of 7 and 8 it was a good choice. 7 stood out to me on my one play.

Ian Dalzell

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2010, 01:57:07 PM »
Well said Pete - atta boy.  Way to stick up for your facility. ;)

Ian

Dan Herrmann

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2012, 08:48:10 PM »
Well – Ledgerock.   

What can I say beyond “strange”?   I found the front 9 to be the same hole over and over again – tee shot across the ravine to a narrow (sometimes skyline) fairway to a green raised on a plateau guarded by deep bunkers in front.  The back 9 wasn’t as repetitive, but you had the holes where you’d hit driver, layup to the edge of the ravine and then bomb it.

Then I got to 17, which might be the worst hole I’ve ever played.  Was Rees on something when he built #17?   Hit a good tee shot and I was left with 202 to a hole that seemed like it was on top of a mountain.  Missed the approach just a little to the right and never found the ball.  18 was OK, but it too was a really nice drive, a 7-iron layup, and a 6-iron.

So – course was visually beautiful, great staff, very fun in spots, but overall kind of bizarre to me. 

Chris Mavros

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2017, 09:49:16 AM »
I thought I'd revive this thread since it's older and I've been playing the course for the last 8 months and have some thoughts. 


When I was considering LedgeRock for membership, I wanted to see if there were any opinions from GCA because the site has turned me on to so many great courses.  I was also considering Moselem Springs and while the GCA consensus is very much in favor of MS over LR, I ended up enjoying LR a lot more and decided to join there.  (MS was great though).


I'm sure things have changed over the several years since the last post in this thread and perhaps the difficulty has been softened in spots.  You are now allowed to walk and carry and I have done so numerous times.  It's not an easy walk, but I enjoy the exercise and there are a lot of short cuts to minimize distances.  But the walk from 2 - 3 and 11 - 12 and 17 - 18 are steep.  The benefit here is any other course I walk is a cinch!


Difficulty-wise, I see it as challenging, quirky and fun.  I like that Rees took out a lot of the trees (isn't that applauded here?) and allows you to use the contours of the land and freedom of ball flight.  Perhaps it's similar to Broad Run with the vistas and elevation changes, but it reminds me more of Rees' Totteridge, where lateral misses are much more accepted and there is a lot more room off fairway.  The holes going up and down for the most part work so much better than across, where you'd be dealing with the ball well above and below your feet for the most part.  You get that here, but with the severity of the property, using the dramatic vertical drops and rises and side bars (1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 12, 13, 18) gives the course a lot of randomness and variety. 


The greens allow approaches aerially or on the ground for the most part (except 2, 4, 7, 10 (all par 3's) 10, 17 and 18).  They are subtle, rumpled and quick.  I'm still figuring them out.  The bunkering provides angles and form, are usually on one side of the hole, yet the easier lies are typically when you have to carry them.  There's temptation there and as one poster said, makes you think about some of your shots a lot more than you probably should. 


By no means is it just a single handicappers course, too hard, too penal, etc.  I'm a 16 and score just as well here as any where else. From the greens, the 7th and second shots of the 11th and 17th are pretty tough. Otherwise, some of the holes are shorter than their stated yardage because of elevation and it's a course you have to get to know, especially when you get out of position, figuring out the best way to salvage the hole.  The areas around the greens and collection areas foster a lot of creativity as well (mainly at 6, 9, 12, 15).


As for forced carries, the only significant one is the second shot on 17.  That shot is certainly one of the most difficult on the course, but a good drive from the Green tees leaves you a fairway wood or longer hybrid in, not all that much different from hundreds of long par 4's that test your acumen with the long clubs despite its visual intimidation.  The second is forced with a 145 par 3, the fourth is longer at about 185 (with anything 160 and over making it over), but otherwise any carry is a mild one off the tee or over a small creek that is maybe 15 yards at its widest at 18.  The carries are not awkwardly placed like they are at Broad Run as well.


Visually, the course is stunning.  Being from the west coast, I enjoy horizons and most courses on the Mid-Atlantic are confined with trees or just the general topography.  But with the hills and trees cleared out, LR has some great scenery, no houses and its surrounding natural landscape is a great backdrop for a round.


The drama, the quirk and the challenge makes for an exciting and thrilling round.   






 







Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2017, 11:44:29 AM »
@ Chris


As a 15 handicapper playing the green tees, do you ever play the white tees? If so, do you score lower? 



"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Chris Mavros

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2017, 12:11:04 PM »
@ Chris


As a 15 handicapper playing the green tees, do you ever play the white tees? If so, do you score lower?


Hi Steve, my first round there they suggested to start out from the White tees and I found it easier to score better.  2, 7, 11 and 18 make the biggest difference off the top of my head.  But my lowest score has been from the Greens, probably because I play it the most. 


If I played 10 rounds from each tee, I'm fairly certain my scores from the Whites would be lower. 


There's also Green/Blue hybrid tees that I've played and haven't seen much of a difference score-wise. 

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2017, 12:19:16 PM »
@Chris


What's the % of members who regularly play the white tees?





"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Chris Mavros

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2017, 12:31:45 PM »
@Chris


What's the % of members who regularly play the white tees?


Not sure; out of the members I've played with, I've seen a couple play from them, or the Green/White combo.  I just don't have enough of a sample size to say with too much certainty. 

Jon Cavalier

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2017, 03:16:17 PM »
Certainly a pretty place:












































Golf Photos via
Twitter: @linksgems
Instagram: @linksgems

Dan Herrmann

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2017, 03:52:19 PM »
I thought that many of the holes with which I had issues could've been much better if Jones had used the creek as a left or right lateral hazard instead of having to traverse it over and over.


In other words, I'd have routed the holes (especially the back 9) about 90 degrees from where they are today.


In my experience, it reminded me of the 2nd at Broad Run - where you tee off with a 5-iron and hit into the green with a 5-wood.


Of course, I have absolutely no idea if Mr. Jones had the routing chosen for him by the ownership.   From what I understand (and lord knows this could be wrong), that was the case at Broad Run (formerly known as Tattersall).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2017, 03:53:50 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Joe Bausch

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2017, 08:04:53 PM »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sean Ogle

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Re: LedgeRock, Mohnton, Pa
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2017, 09:58:39 PM »
I thought I'd revive this thread since it's older and I've been playing the course for the last 8 months and have some thoughts. 
 


Was glad to see this revived as I became familiar with the course a few months ago, and started reading the previous entries in this thread.


Looks like an absolutely beautiful spot (nice photos Jon!), and I've actually enjoyed the handful of Jones' other designs I've played - so have a feeling this won't be any different.


Thanks for the thoughts!

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