[bill_k]

Once a year or so I play in a skins game at a little (par 68-5900 yds) golf course near my hometown. One of the original greens has been moved to allow for a new maintenance facility. The new location of the greensite turns the formerly straightaway hole (a par 4) into a ninety degree dogleg-right with the dogleg protected by a copse of trees. The new hole is intended by management to play as a 210-225 yard layup past the trees, followed by a short shot of 60-90 yards to the green. Now, a better player can simply fire a driver right over the trees and drive the new green (a carry of perhaps 250-260 yds). However,  the green for a different hole sits on the inside elbow of the copse of trees, played in from a different direction, meaning a blocked drive could possibly land on or near this green. To prevent this, management has instituted a local rule-any tee shot which strays to the inside of the dogleg. regardless of where it winds up (including in the hole!) is deemed to be out of bounds.
Has anyone ever heard of anything similar? Is there precedent on some of the more eccentric courses in GB or Europe?

[Dan Herrmann]

bill - sounds like the local rule is in violation of USGA rules. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have never heard of that ruling, Bill... Obviously, internal Out of Bounds are common (and undesirable) for Safety reasons... This ruling is taking Safety to an even further level through what sounds like an unworkable solution...

Do local rules supercede R&A / USGA rules?... Is this allowed?

If it really is that unsafe, then a redesign sounds like the only option to me...

[Joe Bausch]

bill - sounds like the local rule is in violation of USGA rules. 

Sounds like the local rule is quite wise in this case.

[bill_k]

The 18th hole at this course is separated from the ninth by the clubhouse.  On the 18th (290 yrd par 4) it is possible for the longer hitter to carry the ball green-high to the right and then see his tee shot bounce through the parking lot (which is OB) and then re-enter play and come to rest somewhere on the ninth hole. Well, the first time a guy made birdie from the ninth fairway management decided that even if a tee shot from #18 winds up somewhere on the golf course-if it has to travel through OB territory it must be considered OB.
Couple of goofy local rules but an enjoyable little track-lots of good guys.

[bill_k]

What recourse would the locals who belong and play there have? Could the USGA refuse to sanction handicaps from the course for a goofy local rule like this one?

[John Kavanaugh]

I've played courses where you must stay left of a pole and even a course where you must cross the same lake twice.  No big deal in the name of safety.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

Interesting question. Go to the USGA website and the Rules section and look at Dec. 27/20. In theory that appears to allow the local Rule your club is trying to use. In that Decision about a ball that crosses a public road (OB) and comes to rest back on the course, the USGA recommends the following local Rule wording:

"A ball which crosses a public road defined as out of bounds and comes to rest beyond the road is out of bounds, even though it may be on another part of the course."

However, look at Dec. 33-2a/13:

"A committee may make a local Rule under Rule 33-2a declaring part of an adjoining hole to be out of bounds when playing a particular hole, but it is not permissible for a committee to make a local Rule placing an area of the course out of bounds to a stroke played from the teeing ground only."


If that's the way your club is using their local Rule then it is probably not conforming to the Rules of Golf. Best thing to do is get your pro or golf chairman to call the USGA (908-234-2300), ask for the Rules desk, explain your Local Rule and how it is being used in its entirety and they will give your club the necessary guidance. That's what they're there for.

[Rob_Waldron]

This is right up there with the Riviera CC local rule prohibiting chipping on #6 green despite the fact that there is a bunker in the middle of the green. I do not think a club can institute a local rule that supercedes USGA rules.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I've played courses where you must stay left of a pole and even a course where you must cross the same lake twice.  No big deal in the name of safety.

Not quite sure what you mean by this, John... Do you mean the holes are unsafe but that's no big deal?

As for Bill's original post, he was saying that this local rule said if the line of flight travelled over OB, then it was OB... wasn't he?... Regardless of the local rule versus USGA rule scenario, this one just seems that it can't be enforced because there is too much conjecture...

[Brett Hochstein]

Chippewa Hills in Durand, MI has a similar 'line of flight' rule, but I do not remember it being in the name of safety but rather just to make an easy short hole harder.

University of Michigan has a similar 'no chipping' rule on its 6th green with the bunker cutting into the green.

[John Kavanaugh]

The course where you are required to stay left of a pole charges $12 including cart for 18 holes.  They can not afford a set of Hinkle trees to keep people from cutting a dog leg on a par 5 which would cause a player to hit directly into an oncoming group.  It is simple...You hit your ball down to the end of the dog leg and turn right around the pole.  If you don't you take a stroke and distance penalty.  It is a tall pole that is no harder to comply with than almost any drop from a lateral hazard.

The hole is safe with this local rule and the green fee remains affordable.

I think bill-k lost a skin and is crying in his milk.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Chippewa Hills in Durand, MI has a similar 'line of flight' rule, but I do not remember it being in the name of safety but rather just to make an easy short hole harder.

Brett, it may be there to make the hole harder but I'd be surprised if safety wasn't the primary motivation behind it...

[rjsimper]

Interior OB on a golf course is nothing new - the 11th hole at the Middlebury College golf course has it in much the same fashion as you describe here, except it's a par 5 and it's designed to prevent you from firing over the 8th tee box at the green on a 90-degree dogleg par 5.

It's a local rule, in a USGA event it would not be allowed, but they won't be holding many USGA events there.

Is this any different than Valhalla with the island fairway par 5 being declared "out of play" for the PGA?

[Tim Bert]

There's a hole at a course in Memphis where they thought they built a really cool short par 4 dogleg for the first hole.  It was well under 300 measured down the fairway, and even less from tee to green.  There were some big trees in the direct line of flight.  Well, go figure, lots of people waited until the green was cleared and tried to go for it.  Train wreck on the first tee.  Instead of re-designing the hole, they implemented a local rule that hitting over the trees was OB.  Sound familiar?  Not a very good rule in my opinion, and extremely frustrating when you accidently hit a stray one over the tree line and lands in play.

[TEPaul]

"This is right up there with the Riviera CC local rule prohibiting chipping on #6 green despite the fact that there is a bunker in the middle of the green. I do not think a club can institute a local rule that supercedes USGA rules."


RobW:

What R&A/USGA Rule is that Riviera Local Rule superceding or waiving?

[John_Cullum]

A golf course is not at liberty to make any local rule as it sees fit. Local rules must conform to the rules of golf. Appendix I, Part A clearly states that all local rules must be approved by the USGA; however, certain situations are so common that the USGA has peremptorily approved the adoption of certain local rules and those rules are stated in Appendix I, Part B.

If a local rule is not stated in Part B, the committee is required to submit the matter to the USGA for approval.

In the instant case, a decision already addresses the matter:

"33-2a/13  Tee Decreed to Be in Bounds for Tee Shot and Out of Bounds Thereafter

Q. A Committee has decreed that ground surrounding a certain teeing ground is in bounds for tee shots and out of bounds thereafter. Is this permissible?

A. No. In play of a particular hole, an area cannot be both in bounds and out of bounds."

SO clearly the green of the hole being played cannot be out of bounds for strokes played from the tee under the rules of golf.

[John_Cullum]

"This is right up there with the Riviera CC local rule prohibiting chipping on #6 green despite the fact that there is a bunker in the middle of the green. I do not think a club can institute a local rule that supercedes USGA rules."


RobW:

What R&A/USGA Rule is that Riviera Local Rule superceding or waiving?

The rules do not dictate the club with which a player makes his stroke, or the shape of his swing so long as it is not scraping, spooning , or pushing and is otherwise fairly struck

[JohnV]

Tom,

27/20 is not applicable to this case, because the ball would have to come to rest on a different part of the course that would be out of bounds in the play of the current hole.  Obviously the green of the hole being played could not be out of bounds.

It is intended for something like (dumb example) a ball on the 1st hole at Oakmont that ended up on the other side of the turnpike on the 2nd tee.

The rule is not conforming with the Rules of Golf, but, so are desert lateral hazards, drop areas on the green side of hazards, long grass rules and lots of other local rules found at golf courses.

[Ken Moum]

There are at least four golf courses in South Dakota with that rule.

The all mark the corner with a flag or "barber pole" and a ball that passes it on the wrong side is OB. Actually, one of them required that you play around the pole, so if you passed on the wrong side, you had to play backward around it--sort of like missing amark in sailing.

In each case, cutting the corner would have shortened the hole by a huge amount.

In one case the ideal line would have been back over the previous greens and up the previous fairway.

Another one has a 400-yard par-five first hole that took a near-90* dogleg right 150 yards from the tee. if you cut the corner and hit it 250-260 you would have been playing over a school playground, and could easily be within 80 yards of the green. They stuck a golf flagstick in the top of the chainlink fence post at the corner and called it OB. Of course, it also has a cinder track and football end zone that encroaches on the fairway of one hole.

Remember, South Dakota is the home of a course with cart paths in the middle of the fairway.

K

[Bill Shamleffer]

I think this is an EXCELLENT local rule in spite of any possible "violation" of USGA rules.

There are two ways for this problem to be solved in compliance with the USGA rules of golf.  First, a tree, a wall of trees or other obstructing growth (e.g. the "Hinkle tree").  Second, a large fence at one side of the tee box.

Those who view the USGA rules of golf as their own versions of statements from the Vatican would prefer this course to spend extra money (and therefore make this course more expensive to play, when this course appears to be intended for the lower end of the price market), and/or to add a very ugly artificial obstruction.

Instead, the locals have come-up with their own "gentleman's agreement"/local rule, without concerning themselves with the USGA's opinion of this matter (I doubt many at this course are preparing to qualify for the U.S. Open).

They have created a rule that implies that all agree to pretend that something is blocking their ability to hit over another green, and therefore must play the lay-up.  And why did they create this clever artificiality, so as to protect the safety of others on this course.  And to really make sure that this "gentleman's agreement" is fully complied, they have instituted the maximum penalty to expressly show their seriousness about this matter.  GO THE ROUTE OVER THE OTHER HOLE, AND YOU MUST RE-TEE, COUNT THE FIRST SHOT, AND ADD A PENALTY SHOT.

If one abides with this “gentleman’s agreement” and plays the lay-up, no USGA rule is explicitly violated.  Only those unwilling to abide with a local rule whose sole function is the safety of others, and then add the penalty strokes appear to be involved with the course in some violation of USGA rules.

I suppose the rule could have instead been: go over the other hole and the shot must be re-played with no penalty (i.e. like some local rules that allow a shot that hits overhanging wires to be re-played).  But perhaps they wanted to be sure some did not try to play to close to the elbow, knowing a stray shot could just be re-played, but still leaving those on the other hole at risk.

But to reiterate my primary point, the people actually involved in this situation seem to have made a good decision, without limiting themselves to the commandments of those far away and not intimate with this place or these people.

[John_Cullum]

Those who view the USGA rules of golf as their own versions of statements from the Vatican would prefer this course to spend extra money (and therefore make this course more expensive to play, when this course appears to be intended for the lower end of the price market), and/or to add a very ugly artificial obstruction.

Contradicting the rules of golf is not a criminal offense. People are at leisure to make whatever rules they want, but it is not playing golf when they do. It is very similar to golf, but it aint golf if you make up your own rules

[John_Cullum]

If one abides with this “gentleman’s agreement” and plays the lay-up, no USGA rule is explicitly violated.  Only those unwilling to abide with a local rule whose sole function is the safety of others, and then add the penalty strokes appear to be involved with the course in some violation of USGA rules.

Please note rule 1-3

[Kalen Braley]

While there isn't a rule to cover this, at least not that I'm aware of, there should be.

In these numerous examples of horror story holes, there should be a golf rule against horrifically bad architecture.

[Jason Connor]

I've played a club with a short dogleg right par 4 18th.

The (great planning) club pool sits on the inside of the dogleg!

You can cut the corner, fly over the pool and go for the green. Of course the pool is always OB if it lands there.

But in the summer (Memorial Day to Labor Day)  when the pool is open it's also "No fly" OB for the sake of pool safety.

There are jokes about putting red stakes around the pool.

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