News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
While going through Hunter's The Links yesterday I noticed a photograph of 'A Dune Hazard at Troon' was credited to Mackenzie - not in the sense of him supplying the photograph but in the sense that he was the architect. Hunter used the architects name in brackets on relevant photographs and so we see images with (Crump), (Ross) and (Thomas Jr.) amongst others.

That got me thinking that I had seen this image somewhere else, and then it struck me - it was included in Mackenzie's 'Hints on Greenkeeping' pamphlet (I don't know the date) that was reproduced in the back of The Grant Books reprint of Golf Architecture. Sketches are included in the pamphlet of Moortown, Royal Adelaide, Meadow Club, all Mackenzie courses, and then this sketch of A Dune Hazard at Troon, clearly copied from the photograph in The Links. Putting two and two together and hopefully not coming up with five, it would seem clear that Mackenzie would not have included the sketch of the bunker at Troon in his brochure unless he had designed it - seemingly confirmed by the other three sketches.

I've included the photo and sketch for comparison and I would be keen to hear from those who know Troon well as to whether this bunker still exists and if so what hole it is on. And is it on the old course or the Portland?

We know Mackenzie was at Troon designing their Portland course in 1920-21. It was subsequently used to host the qualifying for the 1923 Open and came under fierce criticism by Gene Sarazen. Mackenzie wrote an article on the course and a rebuke to Sarazen in the Sep 1923 issue of Golf Illustrated (US). I have contacted Royal Troon and they were not even aware that Mackenzie had designed the course and promised they would be digging into their archives to find what they can about his involvement.

Hawtree in Colt and Co suggests Mackenzie provided a report to Troon in 1907 but I've not seen any confirmation of this. Mackenzie claimed Troon in the list of courses he had consulted to in his 1923 advertisement, but whether this was in respect of the Portland course or the old course I do not know. perhaps he did some revisions to the old course in 1920-21 while he was working on the Portland course. Hopefully the club may unearth some more info now that they have this info about the Portland and Mackenzie.

Any help gratefully received.




« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 08:55:54 AM by Neil_Crafter »

Chris Ord

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2008, 01:53:44 PM »
the picture kind of reminded me of the tee shot on 10 ("sandhills") on the old course, but the picture's description says shot goes over the dune to "the green which lies just beyond".  this conflicts with the par-4  layout of the hole.  i've never heard of mackenzie having any involvement with troon, but it would be interesting to know if he had.

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2008, 05:17:05 PM »
My presumption is that the dune hazard in question is assuredly the design work of Mackenzie... and that it is a hazard on the Portland Course, not the Royal Troon Old Course.  In fact, I have to say that I don't recognize the hazard in the photo -- I have played the Old twice, but never the Portland.

Thomas MacWood

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 05:52:44 PM »
Neil
That same picture was used in an article written by Willie Fernie in 1923. Chris is right it is the famous 'sandhill bunker' at the 10th. Braid redesigned the course prior to the 1923 Open, but this hazard goes back some ways I'm pretty sure. Darwin describes this tee shot in his 1910 book.

1907 seems early for MacKenzie to be advising Troon, but you never know. I don't believe he mentions Troon in his first book. Anyway you cut it, clearly this bunker had an influence on Mackenzie.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 04:20:00 AM »
Thanks Tom and Chris

I've had an email from a fellow who was a caddie at Troon for over 20 years and he can confirm it is the carry bunker on the 10th hole on the old course. He says that the old caddies used to say that Mackenzie designed the Portland course but no one else at the club believed them! I have been in touch with the club's historian and when I sent him the Golf Illustrated he was rather shocked and pleased I think, and was going to dig deeper into the archives and see what he could find. If Braid redesigned the old course prior to the 1923 Open then why did the club have Mackenzie building their new course in 1920-21 I wonder? Who was there first?

So the question remains - did Mackenzie build this bunker or did he include it in The Links and his pamphlet on greenkeeping just because he liked the look of it?

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2008, 05:49:47 PM »
This is the text of Colin Cotter's email to me - Colin is a former Troon caddy. I sent Colin a copy of Mackenzie's article about Sarazen and the new course at Troon.
On 10/07/2008, at 2:41 AM, Colin Cotter wrote:

Hope this is going to the right person. GCA will not let me register, but as a long-time caddy at Troon (22 years), and with a keen interest in its history, I found your post fascinating. Firstly I have never read anything until now that linked Mackenzie to Troon, except that bizarrely, a number of the older caddies claimed the Portland was designed by him. As I've never read that, nor heard any members mention the fact, I assumed this was a myth designed by the caddies to make the playing of the Portland more attractive to visitors, (many like to have their 2nd round on the shorter course). Turns out it was true. I'd love to know if this was passed down among generations of caddies but forgotten about by the members.  I've certainly never read anything in the club histories published over the years. I do however, know many other things about the courses' architecture, so with regard to your picture, I'm certain it's of the 10th on the old course. The shot would be taken from, or near to, the present 10th championship tee. At the time, the green was not far over the ridge, but was a short par 4. After various locations it moved to its present situation in the early 60's and now measures 438 yards. The view has changed somewhat, the ridge now being whin (gorse) covered. Troon lost a lot of it's bunkers during WW2, but I believe there was still a bunker, though not on the scale shown, until the late 1970's. At that time, due to the fashion that blind shots were not ideal on an Open championship course, the bunker was removed and a V-shape gouged out to indicate the line better, though the blind shot, thankfully, remains. If I'm right, the gouge was cut between the right edge of the bunker and it's middle 'finger'. The line from the tee is over the high point on the ridge for longer hitters, to the right for shorter. No evidence remains of the sleeper face of the bunker, though I'm tempted to look for evidence.

As regards Mackenzie at Troon, and the date, this is very interesting. The Open first came to Troon in 1923, and everything I have read has suggested that James Braid designed many new bunkers, 40 or so, in advance of this. If this is the case, why was Mackenzie there? Could he have done many of the changes that have since been attributed to Braid? Thanks for the post. Please send a reply so I know this has reached the right person, and I'll send an up-to-date picture of the view as it is now, if you wish. Incidentally, I think there was a certain amount of redesign of the Portland post-war, but certain indicators suggest that much of it will still be the same as when it was designed in the 20's.

Oh, and who did you speak to at Royal Troon? Was it the archivist, whose name temporarily escapes me?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2008, 07:49:00 PM »
Interesting about the Braid vs. Mackenzie possible switcheroo. But it's more than "suggested" Braid installed lots of bunkers, it was reported, at least I remember reading that in a Golf Illustrated article.  There's still the matter of the New / Portland course

As for how well that course has been preserved, Mackenzie did write in that Sept 1923 GI article, "In attempting to achieve finality, although extremely considerate to the average golfer, I have attempted to cater for a standard of play which no one can quite achieve today."

From same article:
"slightly over six thousand yards in length"
"laid out in two loops of nine holes"
five par 3s, "all visible and varying in character and length"
four par 5s
"complete absence of blindness"

Interestingly, today's course has 5 par 3s, 3 par 5s -- the 1st is 462 yards and listed today as a par 4, perhaps qualifying it originally as a par 5 -- is 6,289 yards, and returns to the clubhouse after the ninth hole.

Also, does this look like the current sixth green on the Portland course:


FYI Mackenzie wrote he attended the final round of the 1923 Open at Troon.

Neil, somewhere along the line apparently the course's name was changed from New to Portland. Any ideas on why / when?

Mark

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2008, 01:30:22 AM »
Mark
Course was named the Portland course in 1924 according to the club's website, and named I believe for the Club’s first Honorary President, His Grace William John Arthur Charles James, The 6th Duke of Portland K.G., P.C., G.C.V.O.

I too would like to see some photos of the Portland course today and it would be nice to see one from the same angle that the old photo of the 6th green was taken from.
Neil

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 07:00:13 AM »
Here's a photo of the tee shot on the 10th from an old thread on Troon. I think its pretty clear where the bunker was and the groove in the sandhill that was cut as explained by Colin Cotter. I've reposted the old photo again below for comparison.





James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 07:39:54 AM »
Tony Muldoon

these pictures remind me of our meandering through the dunes at Princes in 2006, following the lines of the old (NLE) routing and seeing the old carry bunkers still there in place but grassed over.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2008, 02:06:54 PM »
If we told them restoration would "strengthen" the hole for the return of the Open, think they'd go for it?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 07:18:09 PM »
I prefer the look of the bunker to what is there now, but its a tough call when it comes to spending money to build and mantain this bunker.  I know folks are interested in the historical aspects of design, but is there any reason to think a restored bunker would make the hole better?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 07:28:10 PM »
Sean

Not to mention you could look at the removal of the bunker as a "restoration" to what was there before the bunker was put in!

In the recent picture, though, are those whins blanketing the hillside? In which case, putting the bunker back in would offer something gentler to the higher handicapper, yes?

Also, the center bunker bay looks like an aiming device, so there's something in there to satisfy the better-golfer segment, too!

Lastly, isn't Troon rich enough to handle the freight?  People complain all the time about the fees they charge...

Mark

PS I like how the bunker calls to mind famous and big hillside bunkers on other Open courses, current and past.  There's a sort of continuity in that...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 07:36:12 PM »
Sean

Not to mention you could look at the removal of the bunker as a "restoration" to what was there before the bunker was put in!

In the recent picture, though, are those whins blanketing the hillside? In which case, putting the bunker back in would offer something gentler to the higher handicapper, yes?

Also, the center bunker bay looks like an aiming device, so there's something in there to satisfy the better-golfer segment, too!

Lastly, isn't Troon rich enough to handle the freight?  People complain all the time about the fees they charge...

Mark

PS I like how the bunker calls to mind famous and big hillside bunkers on other Open courses, current and past.  There's a sort of continuity in that...

Mark

I agree with what you say, but would the course be any better for a bunker restoration?  I can't really see the added value.  Now, if they were to change the hole so there is a route around the the carry, then I would probably go for a partial restoration because the bunker may add an intimidation factor. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2008, 01:21:27 AM »
Sean and Mark
It doesn't look like its a big carry to me so restoring it would be more a case of wanting to for its own sake rather than thinking it would add anything to the play. Mark, in the bunker certainly would be preferable to hunting around in the whins and shrubbery that have infested these sandhills. Time for some horizontal pruning I'd say!

What other famous 'in the hillside' bunkers are there on Open courses?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie?
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2008, 03:48:53 AM »
Sean and Mark
It doesn't look like its a big carry to me so restoring it would be more a case of wanting to for its own sake rather than thinking it would add anything to the play. Mark, in the bunker certainly would be preferable to hunting around in the whins and shrubbery that have infested these sandhills. Time for some horizontal pruning I'd say!

What other famous 'in the hillside' bunkers are there on Open courses?

Neil

The 4th at Sandwich. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th Photo
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2008, 08:32:17 PM »
As to the question posed by Mark B regarding the photo of the Portland Course's 6th green from 1923, I think we can answer in the affirmative thanks to this photo taken from the same spot by Troon resident Colin Cotter. I've put the 1923 and today's photo together for a nice comparison. Certainly seems Mackenzie's bunkering has been neutered but the green complex still seems roughly the same.



Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th Photo
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2008, 06:46:08 AM »
As to the question posed by Mark B regarding the photo of the Portland Course's 6th green from 1923, I think we can answer in the affirmative thanks to this photo taken from the same spot by Troon resident Colin Cotter. I've put the 1923 and today's photo together for a nice comparison. Certainly seems Mackenzie's bunkering has been neutered but the green complex still seems roughly the same.




Neil

Look at those fairway bunkers in the distance.  I can see why links have leaned toward pot bunkering.  How the heck does sand stay in a bunker designed like those?  I can imagine sand spilling about in decent winds and creating a maintenance nightmare.  A serious question, did Dr Mac ever figure out that his preferred style of bunkering must have been a serious financial investment in terms of maitenance for clubs raked by wind?  Or, and possibly more likely, did he figure the tradeoff of cost VS beauty and visual intimidation was worth it?

As an aside, the really odd thing about the development of pot bunkers, when done really well, is that they are very intimidating.  I spose the gathering element combined with the lack of visuals, often times seeing only a low, ground hugging shadow as an indication of sand, can be most off putting.  Was the skill of building really top notch pot bunkers developed after Dr Mac's time?  I ask, because it seems to me, that this style of hazard flies directly in the face of Dr Mac's theory that hazards should be visually intimidating.  On the other hand, pot bunkers can be considered camouflage kings in how they can be deceptively large given the surrounding terrain.   

One of the most intriguing aspects of these new American dune courses in NE & CO is expansiveness of the sites.  Does anybody think this expansiveness allowed the archies to be a bit more free form with some of the bunkering come waste areas?   

Ah, so many questions.  You MacHeads out there, gimme some answers!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas MacWood

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th photo
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2008, 07:15:05 AM »
Sean
Did the links at the turn of the century (1900) have pot bunkers?

Rich Goodale

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th photo
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 07:26:40 AM »
Probably so, Tom, as I can't see how Low was allowed to put all those little pot bunkers down the outward right side of the Old Course at that time if they didn't reasonably mimic something local or established elsewhere.

Not Sean

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th photo
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 07:42:12 AM »
Tommy Mac - you are killing me! I write "You MacHeads out there, gimme some answers!" and you respond with a question:  
Sean
Did the links at the turn of the century (1900) have pot bunkers?

Heavy sigh.  

I don't really know if pot bunkers existed in 1900.  I suspect some man made pots did exist,  though perhaps not so neatly trimmed versions as can be found on today's championship links.  I recall seeing a timeline of Hell Bunker posted on this site.  While not a pot bunker, the walls were sodded at some point to stop erosion and I suspect to stop sand leaking onto the fairway.  However, I can't recall the timeline of change or when the initial effort at cleaning up the look happened.  I think that as the game grew, golfers started to expect better conditions, and hence the reason for keeping sand off the fairways.  

Can anybody drag up the old timeline of Hell Bunker?

Ricardo makes a good point.  TOC slapped in more than a few bunkers in the first decade of the 20th century.  Whether or not they were consided pots, I don't know.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 07:46:11 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th photo
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 09:03:13 AM »
How much, if at all, did John Low's famous little centerline bunker at the 4th at Woking (1904?) create enthusiasm for pot bunkers?

Bob

Thomas MacWood

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th photo
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 10:37:02 AM »
Two of Horace Hutchinson's most famous books - British Golf Links and Golf Greens and Green-Keeping - are very good sources for photographic documentation of links golf right before and after 1900. Based on those books I don't think pot bunkers were as prevalent as you might think.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th photo
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 11:12:43 AM »
Two of Horace Hutchinson's most famous books - British Golf Links and Golf Greens and Green-Keeping - are very good sources for photographic documentation of links golf right before and after 1900. Based on those books I don't think pot bunkers were as prevalent as you might think.

Very heavy sigh. 

First, I ask a question.  Second, you respond with a question.  Third, I answer the question, but with an obvious qualification to the answer - "I don't know".  Fourth, you respond with an insinuation that I believe pot bunkers were prevalent.  See the qualification repeated in the Third point.  Fifth, the timing of the arrival of the first pot bunkers has nothing to do with the original question I asked.

You win Tommy Mac.  Now, does any other MacHead have any ideas about my questions?

Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas MacWood

Re: A Dune Hazard at Troon - Mackenzie? Now with Portland 6th Photo
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 12:16:44 PM »
Sean
I apologize, based upon your well documented love for simplicity and disdane for anything naturalistic I subconsiously omitted the question marks from your post. I thought I read you saying Mackenzie must have been a real idiot for making bunkers like this when pots were the norm, and those MacHeads (a most endearing term) out there who like this style must be real idiots too.

I would disagree with your comment about this style of bunkering being less intimidating. I think some of these more naturalistic and haphazard hazards are equally intimidating...you never know what you might get. County Down comes to mind. Sigh away.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back