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Patrick_Mucci

When all the analyses are complete
« on: July 08, 2008, 06:34:22 PM »
isn't the true test of the merits of any golf course the desire to replay it repeatedly, as often as possible ?

What courses fit that mold ?

What courses did you not want to play after having played them the 1st time ?

Tom Huckaby

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2008, 06:36:57 PM »
Yes.

NGLA, Cypress Point, Sand Hills, many other greats.

Can't think of any right now, I tend to like most anything... but THE RANCH (San Jose, CA) comes to mind.  I did not want to play it again after playing it the first time.  But I did eventually return.

John Kavanaugh

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2008, 06:52:31 PM »
isn't the true test of the merits of any golf course the desire to replay it repeatedly, as often as possible ?

What courses fit that mold ?

What courses did you not want to play after having played them the 1st time ?

I have grown tired of this simplistic standard.  It is far too dependant on non-architectural items such as cost, company and the quality of your life outside of golf.

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2008, 07:55:04 PM »
If you exclude cost and access there are many courses I would play again and again. I played Olympic, LACC and Riviera 20+ years ago and would go back all the time but I don't have access. Pebble is another, but at $500 a pop I probably won't be back unless I hit the lottery.
Edgewood in Tahoe I feel is overrated and over priced, played it once 25 years ago and haven't been back even though I am nearby and have the money if I wanted to play it.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2008, 07:57:41 PM »
analysis isn't conducted in a vacuum, Mr. Mucci  ;)
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2008, 08:06:00 PM »
Patrick, as a general rule, yes. 

But if you apply that standard, Carnoustie would be in my bottom 10% of courses.  I have no desire to play it again, but can still acknowledge that its a very good golf course (but not a great one), a superb test for good players and a good Open venue.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2008, 09:51:36 PM »


I have grown tired of this simplistic standard. 

It is far too dependant on non-architectural items such as cost, company and the quality of your life outside of golf.

To the contrary, it's got nothing to do with any of those items, unless you can't chew gum and walk at the same time.  It's solely dependent upon how the individual connected with the golf course/architecture.


John Moore II

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2008, 10:03:04 PM »
I would say that one measure of greatness is a desire to return, however, at times, I would say that a great course may simply not fit your style and you not want to return. Pine Needles, Tobacco Road, CCNC and Forest Creek fit the mold of great courses I wanted to return and play again as soon as I walked off.
--I played The Pit, which I recall Golf Digest ranking top 12 in the state of NC at one point, and when I walked off the 18th green, I had no desire at all to return. I was convinced against my better judgement to return, and my opinion was only worsened. That may be the only course I truly would say I have no desire at all to play again.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2008, 10:12:35 PM »
Pat,

The one course I do not feel that I need to play again is Troon.

Bob

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2008, 11:09:29 PM »


I have grown tired of this simplistic standard. 

It is far too dependant on non-architectural items such as cost, company and the quality of your life outside of golf.

To the contrary, it's got nothing to do with any of those items, unless you can't chew gum and walk at the same time.  It's solely dependent upon how the individual connected with the golf course/architecture.


Patrick, with all due respect, I disagree with your response to John above. Your original point had to do with the "merits of the golf course," and I think it's obvious that the merits of a golf course go beyond the architecture, and at the very least the cost of a course has a lot to do with its perceived "merits," at least in my world.

The desire to play a course repeatedly might have to do with the player's feeling about the status of the course or the condition of the course or the location of the course...........

In my opinion, when analyses are complete, The true test of the merits of any golf course is the degree to which exposure to the course stacks up against the experience and expectations of the golfer. The desire for repeat play is just a natural result when a course satisfies those criteria.

All in all, though, it's still a pretty general notion, since expectations and experience are different for everyone.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2008, 11:22:32 PM »
I thought Pat's key was a desire.
 So, the outside influence do not compute.

I have a really odd notion. Having played the Sistine Chapel on a one and only opportunity, there's something weird about how I feel about the chance to play it again. Maybe it's the feeling of losing such a special memory, since it was in competition? I don't know. Maybe a few sessions with Dr. Katz?

 Sure the desire is there, but, somethings are best not forced.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2008, 05:29:39 AM »
Adam

I too was intrigued by the word "desire" in Pat's post.  However, for me, as Kirk suggests, other things are wrapped up in the desire aspect of seeing the course again.  For instance, money plays a big part.  I have no desire to part with however much it is to play many courses again.  However, if green fees were drastically reduced, my desire would increase.  Probably to the point where I would go back to some of these.  Two courses that pop into my mind are Carnoustie & Pinehurst.  I would like another look at these, but I ain't paying the going rate.  I spose I have a reverse attitude.  I am attracted to courses which are comfortably affordable and not so much to those that I find expensive especially if its a repeat play.  Of course, some courses are good enough that even if they are expensive I would return if given the opportunity. 

Ciao

 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

tlavin

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2008, 11:16:24 AM »
"I wouldn't get tired of playing this course all the time" is a very worthy quote for a great golf course.  Doesn't have to be the best or the hardest or the most unique architectural gem, but if one would would be content playing it all the time, it must be a great course.

In Chicago, Beverly, Olympia (both courses), Shoreacres and Skokie fit the bill for me.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 12:30:38 PM »
"I wouldn't get tired of playing this course all the time" is a very worthy quote for a great golf course.  Doesn't have to be the best or the hardest or the most unique architectural gem, but if one would would be content playing it all the time, it must be a great course.

In Chicago, Beverly, Olympia (both courses), Shoreacres and Skokie fit the bill for me.

Terry,

I think the quote you offered up was a little more accurate of how I feel a good measurement should be taking.  There are plenty of courses that I would like to play again, very soon, even if money weren't an issue, again and again. But I would likely get tired with them. 

So it really is the course that one can't envision themselves ever getting tired with that is the true mark.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2008, 09:51:53 PM »


I have grown tired of this simplistic standard. 

It is far too dependant on non-architectural items such as cost, company and the quality of your life outside of golf.

To the contrary, it's got nothing to do with any of those items, unless you can't chew gum and walk at the same time.  It's solely dependent upon how the individual connected with the golf course/architecture.


Patrick, with all due respect, I disagree with your response to John above. Your original point had to do with the "merits of the golf course,"

and I think it's obvious that the merits of a golf course go beyond the architecture,

No, they don't !

Can't you people read ?
Can't you understand the written word ?

The merits of the golf course reside solely within the confines of the golf course, not in the pro shop, not in the 19th hole, not with the caddies and not with the cost of the round or how long it took you to get there.
It's strictly related to how you interfaced with the golf course/architecture.

If you want to start another thread on value for your green fee, feel free to do so, but, this thread relates SOLELY to the golf course/architecture
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and at the very least the cost of a course has a lot to do with its perceived "merits," at least in my world.

The cost of the golf course has nothing to do with the architecture and how the golfer interfaced with it.
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The desire to play a course repeatedly might have to do with the player's feeling about the status of the course or the condition of the course or the location of the course...........

Let me see if I understand this.

You walk off the 18th green, and the first thought that goes through your mind is, "how far is this course from my office/home ?

Or, "Playing this course is my "Red Badge of Courage", a sign that I've arrived in the golf world ?

Or, "What a lousy layout, but, it was in such good condition that I want to play it, again, and again and again ?


In my opinion, when analyses are complete, The true test of the merits of any golf course is the degree to which exposure to the course stacks up against the experience and expectations of the golfer.

If you've never played it before, how can you have well founded expectations on the merits of the golf course/architecture ?


The desire for repeat play is just a natural result when a course satisfies those criteria.

What criteria ?

Are you stating that the architectural merits of the course/architecture have no bearing on your desire to play it again, and again and again ?


All in all, though, it's still a pretty general notion, since expectations and experience are different for everyone.

How realistic and how well founded are expectations about a golf course that you've never played ?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2008, 09:54:25 PM »

I thought Pat's key was a desire.
So, the outside influence do not compute.

Adam,

You're correct.

Please explain it to the others.

Thanks.


I have a really odd notion. Having played the Sistine Chapel on a one and only opportunity, there's something weird about how I feel about the chance to play it again. Maybe it's the feeling of losing such a special memory, since it was in competition? I don't know. Maybe a few sessions with Dr. Katz?

Sure the desire is there, but, somethings are best not forced.

John Moore II

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2008, 10:13:10 PM »
I suppose the desire to play depends really on the architecture, but whether or not you will act on that desire depends on the cost and whether or not the course cares about pace and other things.
--I would play Pine Needles every day. I am able to play Needles for an extremely reduced rate. I also have the desire to play there every day if possible. However, if I had to pay the $200ish they charge the public, I would still love the course and want to play, however, there is no way I would be able to act on it.

Kyle Harris

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2008, 10:16:41 PM »
When I'm depressed, I have no desire to play golf.

That doesn't make Merion a goat track.

John's right here. Too many other factors enter into the equation.

John Moore II

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2008, 10:26:56 PM »
I am not so much saying that other factors really enter into whether or not I have the desire to play a course or whether I greatly enjoyed the course. However, things such as pace of play and cost will determine if I choose to act on that desire.
--I MIGHT, repeat MIGHT pay $500 to play Pine Valley or Augusta, however, no matter how much I enjoy the course and wanted to play it again, for that price, I would never be seen inside those pristine gates again.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2008, 07:55:00 AM »
Heh heh....Patrick, I knew you'd be getting on me for that post !

Still, when you talk about "the merits of a golf course" and the "desire for repeat play," I don't think that I need a reading lesson to conclude that many golfers' desire will be based on the architecture AND other things. You may believe that the only merit that a course has is its architecture, but not everyone feels the same way, so if you want to limit the notion of merit, you could easily have asked "isn't the true test of the merits of any golf course's architecture the desire to replay it repeatedly, as often as possible ?" I didn't mean to point to cost as the only other factor that matters, just as an example of one factor that does. Same with conditioning. I remember a number of folks writing on this board that poor conditioning made them unlikely to return to Apache Stronghold, although they admired the architecture.

And you can argue all you want about how "well-founded" a golfer's expectations are before playing a course for the first time, but does that negate the fact that the expectations certainly exist, and that a course NOT living up to those expectations might not foster the desire for repeat play? Or is it that a person that reacts in such a fashion is inherently a moron and therefore their lack of desire to play the course again and again shouldn't reflect poorly on the quality of the architecture but instead on the idiocy of the golfer in question?

I actually don't want it to seem that I'm disagreeing with you all that much, Patrick. I just feel like there may be other things that come to play besides architecture only that affects the desire on the part of golfers for repeat play. For most of us, though, that IS the major factor.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Patrick_Mucci

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2008, 04:35:23 PM »
ATTENTION ARCHITECTURAL DUMMIES !

IT'S AN INTELLECTUAL EXERCISE, NOT A FINANCIAL DECISION 

I'LL BE BACK  ;D

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2008, 04:43:40 PM »
This time Pat is right, I don't see how non-golf issues can be logically applied to this question. 

For example, Royal Dornoch is far too expensive for me to play to repeatedly.  This doesn't mean I wouldn't like to.  I doubt Swinley Forest would let me play repeatedly, and doubt even more that they'd let me become a member.  I'd still like to play there time after time.

John Kavanaugh

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2008, 04:49:57 PM »
I have no desire to play Sand Hills because I feel I have been there, done that at Ballyneal.  This is not an economic decision or because of how much I would enjoy the round.  My lack of desire is entirely an intellectual one based on architectural facts.  This does not make Sand Hills any less of a great course.

I can make the same argument for any recently built Fazio course in the country.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2008, 05:17:12 PM »
isn't the true test of the merits of any golf course the desire to replay it repeatedly, as often as possible ?

What courses fit that mold ?

Cypress Point, Pebble Beach, Riviera, Pasatiempo, LACC North, MPCC Shore, Rusitc Canyon.

What courses did you not want to play after having played them the 1st time ?

There are too many to list.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

John Moore II

Re: When all the analyses are complete
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2008, 05:24:50 PM »
I can make the same argument for any recently built Fazio course in the country.

John--Is Victoria included in that 'recently built Fazio' statement? ;D

Pat-- You are correct that this is a intellectual conversation about the desirability of a given course. However, that desire at some point must meet financial reality. I desire to play Pebble Beach, however, the reality is, until I find a way to play for around $50, I will never play.

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