[Thomas MacWood]

Phil
Did you read MacKenzie's article in Golf Illustrated?

"The other instance concerned a club amongst the oldest in America. The course was designed years before anyone had formulated any definite ideas about golf architecture, so it was hardly to be expected that the layout would be ideal. As a matter of fact, the general design was no better than that of other courses which were constructed about the same period.

The first four and the last four holes were extremely hilly. There were many fine architectural features and backgrounds that were not utilized. There were many parallel holes and there was a stream, which should have been used as a diagonal hazard, which was crossed at right angles. The course was far too difficult for the average golfer, and, on the other hand, of little interest to the good player. In fact it was somewhat surprising that the members got any real pleasure in playing it.

On the other hand the chairman of the greens committee had made a study of golf courses, and had eliminated the worst of the hill climbing at the end of the course. Also the club had an excellent greens keeper, who had got the course into very good shape. Apart from the hills, there was not much acreage to make a first class golf course, and a plan for taking in more ground involving an expenditure, of considerably more than a hundred thousand dollars had been considered.

My problem was to use as many of the existing greens as possible and to evolve a good golf course at a minimum of expense. I had never a more difficult problem with which to deal, and, after several weeks of careful study and planning, I evolved a scheme, which, without taking in any additional land, would give an exceptionally pleasurable and interesting course at an extremely low cost. One hole had already been made from one of the plans, when unfortunately something happened in the inner workins of the club and the work was not carried through to a finish."

Mark
I have no idea where they were filed. I don't have the records. The information came from Bob Beck. It is interesting that Ohio State was not listed because they ended up settling with the estate too.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Yes, I did read that article.

Did you read what you wrote?  "Eight months after MacKenzie's death his estate had claims against a number of clubs for services rendered: County Burrough of Walsail, England; Sacramento Golf Commission; Augusta National; Union League GC; Capuchino GC; Woodside CC; Northwood, Cal; St.Andrews, NY; Broadstone, England; Northshore-Scarborogh, England..."

Again, where is the actual documentation for this? I am trying to ENCOURAGE a club to go do a thorough search in hopes that a long-lost set of Mackenzie prints might be found... after all, I doubt that Wendell Miller had the ONLY set of prints for the St. Andrew's proposed project...

They will need more than an "obscure couple of hearsay references... that is why I keep asking for location of actual documents to this and/or more information as to where it might be located.

[Thomas MacWood]

Phil
The list of creditors came for Santa Cruz Evening News (1934). Perhaps the newspaper fabricated the story and maybe Wendell Miller was mistaken as well (1934), and chances are MacKenzie got the story wrong too (1933).

You are right, and the former club president is right (2008), evidently MacKenzie was never there...

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Again, you misread what I wrote... I said that my friend who is past president told me that he could find no mention of any involvement or even a visit by Mackenzie...

I haven't made any judgment on it at all. I certainly believe both Mackenzie and Miller, but in order for me to convince some to take a further and more in-depth look I need more than just their word on it.

Give me a break here... Do you know the SPECIFIC date of the Santa Cruz Evening News in 1934 that carried the story?

[Thomas MacWood]

Phil
August 10, 1934. page 4.

You can add a fourth piece of documentation Neil mentioned in his first post, the letter from MacKenzie to ANGC's Roberts stating St.Andrews owed him money. I don't think I misread you. You wrote, "evidently MacKenzie wasn't there...." I'm confused, how do you draw that conclusion based on this information?

[Neil_Crafter]

Philip and Tom
Thanks for asking your friend about this, and from my perspective it is not worth you two crossing swords over. I guess its disappointing that he had found nothing of Mackenzie in the club's archives, especially given that there is Wendell Miller's indication that he had the Dr's green plans for St Andrews. While Mackenzie did not refer to the club specifically in The American Golfer article, but the description would seem to be a good match by all accounts. Then we have the reference to St Andrews in Owen's book, being a direct reference from a Mackenzie letter to Roberts at ANGC. While the Am Golfer article could possibly be referring to a different course, it would seem fairly apparent that both Miller and Mackenzie himself, would not be both mistaken about St Andrews. Mackenzie would have no reason to 'make up' the story about his fees from St Andrews being "repudiated" and Miller would have no axe to grind either one would think. However, I don't think Mackenzie said he worked at St Andrews in 'Spirit' Tom, unless I missed it somewhere.

I have to wonder whether the club may have expurgated its records many years ago after this affair was over, not wanting it to see the light of day in the future. Suppose its a possibility.

Tom, was very interested to see the list of creditors the estate was chasing - could you send me the article when you can? Thanks. And where the hell is/was Capuchino GC? Never heard of that one. The others are interesting too, given I am trying to expand the courses list that Mackenzie worked on. A couple there that I had no knowledge of and will be worth following up.

Philip, what do you think it would take to get your friend to have another dig in the archives. There are 3 definite mentions, as follows:

1. Owen's book on ANGC, referring to a letter from Mackenzie to Roberts
2. Communication from Miller to St John of Ohio State, Tom can you follow up and find out what form this reference is in, letter or telegram?
3. Santa Cruz Evening News article from 1934 mention of St Andrews NY as being chased by Mackenzie's estate.

I think any reasonable person would take these 3 separate references as sufficient initial evidence to warrant a further dig in the archives, and hopefully they might be sufficient for your friend.

[Thomas MacWood]

Capuchino was in San Francisco, San Mateo to be specific. NLE. Tommy N and Sean T have mentioned it before, evidently it was a Max Behr design from 1927. I believe they said it was near California GC of SF.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

You asked, "I don't think I misread you. You wrote, "evidently MacKenzie wasn't there...." I'm confused, how do you draw that conclusion based on this information?"

Simple... I didn't and you misread me.

Please take another look at what I wrote. It begins with "My publisher... sent me this email to share:"

The phrase "So, evidently Mackenzie was never there..." was PART OF THE EMAIL TO ME! It was NOT MY OPINION ON THE MATTER!

You misread what I wrote...

Neil, you asked, "what do you think it would take to get your friend to have another dig in the archives..." 

Just what I have asked for several Times and that Mark also asked about... actual documentation that I can show to them.

From my first repsonse, "Could this be the case at St. Andrew's? Maybe, but the club doesn't think so. If anyone has any actual documentation such as correspondence I would love to see it and pass it along. I know that they would certainly be willing to recognize it if it were true..."

Asked by Mark, "Tom MacW, The claims made by the estate, were those filed in the court systems of the states in which the courses / clubs exist(ed), or would all of that have gone through the California courts? Do you have the records?"

Asked by me a second time, "Again, where is the actual documentation for this? I am trying to ENCOURAGE a club to go do a thorough search in hopes that a long-lost set of Mackenzie prints might be found... after all, I doubt that Wendell Miller had the ONLY set of prints for the St. Andrew's proposed project..."

Finally I wrote, "They will need more than an "obscure couple of hearsay references... that is why I keep asking for location of actual documents to this and/or more information as to where it might be located."

As one of the oldest clubs in North America and one of the founding five of the USGA, St. Andrew's greatly values their heritage and history. That is why their archives are as extensive as they are. It also means that searching them for what is, if true, at a very minimum a set of lost letters and/or diocuments and might even include priceless drawings done by Mackenzie, is not something that can be accomplished as simple as opening a filing cabinet or drawer and pulling them out.

This could be a very large and long search with no guarantee of anything being found.

If I was in New York I would go myself and look, but I'm not.

So again, can someone send more specific information such as:

1- An actual copy of the article mentioned in the Santa Cruz Evening News? Or at least the actual reference to it including date and page number?

2- "Communication from Miller to St John of Ohio State, Tom can you follow up and find out what form this reference is in, letter or telegram?" Is there an actual COPY of this that could be gotten?

In order for me to urge, cajole, beg or whatever someone to do a long and possibly fruitless search I need to have something that will spark an interest in them to do so...

That is what is needed and that is what I asked for...

No problems Neil or Tom...
 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Capuchino may have been a Behr design, but maybe MacK stopped by, you know, for a cup of coffee.

Or was that Cappuccino GC?

[Sean_Tully]

Capuchino was in San Francisco, San Mateo to be specific. NLE. Tommy N and Sean T have mentioned it before, evidently it was a Max Behr design from 1927. I believe they said it was near California GC of SF.

From my research it appears that MacKenzie and Hunter were brought in to look over the property and possibly draw up some plans. Later, Behr would take the job at Capuchino with some help from Whiting. Then a couple of years later MacKenzie and Hunter would design the Union League right across the road. Would have loved to have seen the Capuchino course as the land is more rolling terrain than the hills found at Union League/Greenhills.

If you look at a google aerial of Greenhills one can see the property of the old Capuchino course to the north. The loop that includes Juanita, Cypress, and Park was in the middle of the course. I have a photo of the old clubhouse on my CPU if I have time I can share it.


Tully

[Thomas MacWood]

Phil
My mistake. I thought you made that statement.

Mark
I was wondering about possible Behr-Mac collaboration at Cap GC.

[Neil_Crafter]

Philip
Bob Beck from Pasa sent me this, I know its not the article itself but its the best I have at the moment:

From Pasatiempo archives:
    Aug. 10, 1934            Santa Cruz Evening News: “Golf Clubs on Dr. Alister MacKenzie Creditor List; Estate Valued at $15,000 As Widow Resigns as Executrix”
- County Burrough of Walsail, England for $504.48

- Sacramento Golf Commission for $1590.

- 4 promissory Notes Against Augusta National for $2250.

- Union League Golf & country club for $1020.

- Capuchino Golf & country club for $1135.

- Woodside Country Club

- Northwood Country Club for $550

- St. Andrew’s (of New York?)

- Dorset Golf Club

- Northshore Golf Course

In addition, I also found another newspaper reference from the Oakland Tribune of 14 April 1935 but this does not list the clubs that were owing him money, just says that an appraisal of his estate was filed in the Superior Court at Santa Cruz. Not sure why there is a ? next to the New York, I'll have to ask Bob.

Tom, can you dig out the Miller / St John correspondence please?

[Thomas MacWood]

I'll see if I can schedule a trip out to the OSU archives. What exactly are you looking for by way of St.Andrews?

By the way there is no ? in the original Santa Cruz newspaper article.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
That would be great - any and all mentions of St Andrews in Miller's correspondence with St John would be good.

Here's a full transcript of the article from the Santa Cruz Evening News of August 10 1934. The original is very poor quality and not worth posting, although Philip I can email it to you if you like.

"GOLF CLUBS ON DR. McKENZIE CREDITOR LIST
Estate Valued at $15,000 As Widow resigns as Executrix

The estate of Dr. Alister MacKenzie, international golf architect and camouflage expert during the world war, was valued at $15,000 in a petition for letters of administration submitted in superior court here yesterday by Herbert D. Armstrong of Alameda after the widow, Hilda Haddock MacKenzie, had resigned as executrix.

Reason for Mrs Mackenzie's resignation was that she is leaving for London, Eng. Dr. Mackenzie, who planned many of the foremost golf courses in the world, among them Cypress Point in Monterey and Pasatiempo, died at his Pasatiempo home earlier this year.

Cash on hand was revealed to be $2,022 and included in the estate was an automobile and household furniture.

Among the claims are some against the most noted golf clubs in the world, including County Burrough of Walsall, England, $504.58: against Sacramento Golf commission, $1590: four promissory notes against Aususta National Golf Club of Augusta, Ga., $2250: against Union League Golf and Country Club of Milbrae, $1020: services rendered Caupchino Golf and Country Club, San Mateo County $1135. Possible claims against Woodside Country Club of Russian river, California, $550: against St. Andrew's Golf Club, New York: against Dorset Golf Club, Broadstone, Eng.: against Northshore Golf course, Scarborough, Yorkshire, Eng."


Interesting that it uses the word "possible" regarding the claims of the last 4 courses, not sure what it means in this context. Bob Beck will be endeavouring to see if the court records survive somewhere.
Neil

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom MacWood has kindly searched the OSU archives and found the letter from Wendell Miller to OSU from October 1934 with its very clear reference that Miller had a set of Mackenzie's green plans for St Andrews, New York in his files. I've passed this on to Philip Young and hopefully on to his friend at St Andrews to see what they can find at that end.

The plot thickens!

Here are the first two pages of relevance. Luckily Miller had good handwriting.

[Neil_Crafter]

Some breaking news to add to this old thread. Thanks to Sean Tully, who continues to unearth interesting stuff about Mackenzie and Bay Area courses, comes this little gem from the Tee Topics column in the San Francisco Call-Bulletin of 26th July 1932 -

"Dr Mackenzie has been commissioned to reconstruct the famous St Andrews course at Mount Hope in Westchester County, New York. The layout is the oldest in America"

This is the fourth piece of evidence linking Mackenzie to St Andrews, and the clincher in my book. If only the club actually had some information about this.

[Phil_the_Author]

Neil and Sean,

Has anyone approached the club about this? If not, I know someone that may be of help.

[Neil_Crafter]

That was quick Phil!
Sean only sent me the clipping an hour or so ago, knowing that it would get me excited.
So no, no-one has approached the club about this. With the four pieces of evidence I think there is a very strong case that he was engaged by the club and that for some reason, it went sour and the work was not completed. Would appreciate any help you can give us :-)

[Mike Cirba]

Terrific work, all...really great to see so much coming together about Mackenzie.

[Niall C]

Excellent stuff Sean.

Neil - to think that I had just finished sending you an email before I read this thread suggesting it might be worth having a word with Phil Young about approaching clubs. I must be clairevouyant.

Niall

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