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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2008, 08:50:06 AM »
It's not about 100 yards fairways, it's about having galleries like Tiger when I block one 40 yards right...

I don't know how you play golf Robert, but the three times I played it with more than decent players, that's what we ended up doing.

Even if it's narrow, I'm not ready to call Tobiano a masterpiece of golf architecture as a lot of people pretended, I'm not even close to ready.

I'm not saying it's a bad course, but the hype around that place makes me sick...

I was not expecting anything out of Talking Rock, nobody made presumptuous quotes or speeches on it, so my critic of it is a lot softer... (day in, day out, I might prefer playing there)

When a place wants to Talk the Talk, they better Walk the Walk... Tobiano doesn't

If they just said, this is our course, comes out and play... I wouldn't be picky

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2008, 08:54:48 AM »
I'm pretty sure american GCA members are tired of reading a bunch of canadians writing about a course they don't give a damn about

Matt Bosela

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2008, 02:46:56 PM »
I'm pretty sure american GCA members are tired of reading a bunch of canadians writing about a course they don't give a damn about

 ;D

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2008, 02:49:48 PM »

When a place wants to Talk the Talk, they better Walk the Walk... Tobiano doesn't

If they just said, this is our course, comes out and play... I wouldn't be picky

I think the hype on Tobiano comes from some terrific-looking photos and smart promotion by the club. If I take you correctly, you're upset because the course's marketing has been successful and you think it outpaces the actual design?
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2008, 03:23:48 PM »
Looks like a beautiful piece of property.

One thing different about Cape Kidnappers is that on the downhill holes we tried to inject fear by making sure there was nothing sticking up behind the greens ... it looks like the putting surface just falls right into the ocean, even when there is a lot of room.  On the photos of Tobiano on their web site, there is an obvious band of rough to catch a shot through the green.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2008, 05:22:38 PM »
I'm pretty sure american GCA members are tired of reading a bunch of canadians writing about a course they don't give a damn about

There's actually a fair bit to learn in a thread like this. Part of it is architecture, part of it is how people accept(or not) courses based on their own abilities (and inherent flaws of said abilities), and part of it is how we learn to listen to criticism of the design and build process once a course has been played a sufficient number of times.

I, for one, am an American who giveth a damn.

Joe

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2008, 07:26:07 PM »
I'm pretty sure american GCA members are tired of reading a bunch of canadians writing about a course they don't give a damn about
A nice change from where Canadian GCA members get sick of Americans talking about a course that they don't give a damn about!  That being said - most American courses are closer to those of us in the Toronto area than courses in BC.  And it seems like BC, particularly the Okanagan, is the hotbed of golf course construction in all of North American right now - there or Saskatchewan given the content of the blogs by Mingay and Andrew this week. ;D

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2008, 07:45:19 PM »
Wayne,

Saskatchewan's booming!

And, hopefully this financial boom will lead to more interesting opportunities in golf course architecture there. Time will tell...
jeffmingay.com

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2008, 09:12:43 PM »
I'm pretty sure american GCA members are tired of reading a bunch of canadians writing about a course they don't give a damn about

And to the contrary -- Tobiano is getting a lot of notice, even in the U.S. I've had a couple of magazines that are keen on stories about the area because of the course.

And we concur on Talking Rock -- much better than expected, with the exception of the awful uphill holes on the back nine.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Andrew Balakshin

Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2008, 03:55:13 AM »
Andrew, you were real enthusiastic about Tobiano in your earlier thread about it.  Now you say the golf course should not have been built.  What changed? 

Good question! To be honest I think I changed, since just the thought of a massive scale development like Tobiano now makes my skin crawl.  Don't get me wrong, I loved working there. The people were great and it was fascinating watching the holes develop, but the thought of mini-mansions going up and being forced to play the course as a "high end resort course" with carpet fairways, silica sand and the whole bit kind of disgusts me.

I also enjoyed working at Sagebrush (not as many mini-mansions) but I realized golf course design and construction wasn't something I wanted to get into. I am more than happy just reading all these stories and course profiles here on GCA.

Tom Doak said it best, in order to become a golf course architect you have to love it more than anything else!

Jason McNamara

Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2008, 05:52:38 AM »
I'm pretty sure american GCA members are tired of reading a bunch of canadians writing about a course they don't give a damn about

Tobiano is not in the greater Philadelphia area.  The thread is fine by me.   :)

Doesn't the train from Vancouver to Jasper (etc) pass pretty close by this area?


Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2008, 09:27:18 AM »
Robert

I don't mind marketing and all this, it is an essential component of golf development, but you got to let time do its job as far as the position the course get in the world...

When you meet people from the staff telling you... it's top ten in Canada before it opens... the real place that makes it big more than often never pretend that it's going to be big...

Promoting is one thing
Pretending is another

Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2008, 12:48:06 PM »
Ok, folks!

I just played the course last week-end, and although it did not match the very high expectations created by all the hype and marketing, it was still a decent track.  I am absolutely convinced that this is not a top 10 course in Canada, as some as suggested, but it is still a strong course.

Philippe's description of it is very harsh, but there is some truth to it.  It is true that it feels like a "dumb blond" in some aspects, but I would not go that far.  The site is spectacular, there is no doubt about it, but the peaceful, natural aspect of it will soon be totally destroyed by the presence of what appears to be a massive residential development.  The fact that the site is devoid of trees will only make things worst, and this is a shame.

The beautiful pictures they use to advertise the place make the course look isolated, and totally quiet, in its otherwise spectacular setting, but ground's eye view of the same holes on site delivers a different story.  The highway next door is heard from a good number of holes, and the huge berm they created to screen it from the course feels totally forced and unnatural.  Its even frustrating as you arrive on site and you are trying to see it from the road!  The housing parcels have been filled in a few areas, and they are a good indication of things to come.

I find this sad.  I am sure the developement is what made this whole course even possible, but now, as soon as you look at something else than the spectacular background, or the course itself, you feel like this land as been raped of its soul.

You might say I am not really talking about the course, and you might be right, but during a good portion of my round, all I could think was "I am sure glad I played this course before all these homes are built, because this is going to be ugly".  The course itself was a good test of golf, with some very penal shots on a couple of occasions.  Although most of my group's interest was concentrated on the roller coaster cart paths and the beautiful scenery, I found there was a couple of good holes out there, such as no. 2, no. 6, no. 8, even though 8 will need a couple of rounds to get used to.  As Philippe suggested, some of the finishing and edging work on the grassing and the bunkers could have used more time and dedication.  However, I have to praise Tom Mcbroom and his associates for trying a different bunker style.  Even if I personaly find it is not a full success, I prefer these bunkers over the more traditional and sometimes bland look of some of their older courses.

So top 10 in Canada? I don't think so.  Best new in Canada?  I am sure it will have a chance.  There is not many new courses opening in Canada every year these days....  It just depends on the competition.  The marketing should help.

So, as promised here are a few shots I took during my round:

Hole no. 1 from the blue tee.



Hole no. 2 from the blue tee.



Hole no. 5 from the right side of the fairway.



Hole no. 7 from the blue tee.



Hole no. 8 from the left side of the fairway.



Hole no. 12 from the blue tee.



Hole no. 13 from the blue tee.



And finally, Hole no. 16 from the left side of the fairway.



Enjoy!

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2008, 01:10:21 PM »

Hole no. 5 from the right side of the fairway.




it doesn't look like a course i would like to play everyday, but it does look pretty interesting (and fun)...especially #5 (though the cart path is terrible...look how they had to cut into those ridges).

i would lose a lot of golf balls...

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2008, 02:41:52 PM »
About the talk the talk, walk the walk issue, Tobiano is not the only course in the business doing that... that's very true and I really thing that's a sad but necessary part of the business.

There are a couple of good holes out there, and some holes that are well presented... but to call it Great is another word...

That's a softer version of my comments, but being provocative is essential to encourage debate.

Hole by hole:

1) OK, nothing special, not sure about the grass lines and bunkering on the second shot

2) OK, although if it was intended to be driveable, I doubt a lot of players would go for a semi blind
target  with lost ball long or left... wind in the face makes it more like 360 yards hole

3) OK, small par 3 over ravine, severe green

4) OK tee shot, the bunkerless hole is without real strategy, suppose to tempt a running shot but the green configuration doesn't favor any angle of approach. Weird looking grassing line at the green

5) Actually a fun tee shot, unique down the valley (would be better if it was not semi blind). I do agree that the cart path is bad, but that was the last hole to be seeded and it might have been a last-minute maintenance issue to open the course last year.

6) OK, nice cliff of the tee. The horizon line on the green is just not quite making it.

7) Dramatic pitch over a cliff... I'm not sure the hole works playing with a hard downwind, it would be impossible to hold that green even with a sand wedge. New greens are always firm though. Have a hard time seeing how a 15 handicap with a 8 iron can hold that green.

8) The hole doesn't work for average players, their second shot is blind with a canyon on the right to a 15 yards wide fairway that kicks the ball in the canyon. It's also a cliff side hole where the design is purposefully sending you away from the cliff.

9) OK hole, narrow but downwind and short enough to hit 3-wood of the tee. Second shot, I'm not a fan but OK

10) Standard par 5, well presented, severe green site but the use of the backstop makes it worké

11) Well presented hole. Wider than it looks, but not overly wide. Lay up off the tee, the spine in the green is severe and unavoidable. I tap a ball with my hand on top of the spine and it roll off the green.
OK for better players who would hit over the canyon to that pin but the average player who bails out on the left side of the green is going to 3-putt and 1-chip from there. Good or bad (I let you decide.)

12) Long par-3, severe bowlish green, bunkers on both side. Standard, green makes the hole severe

13) Impressive looking par-5 off the tee, no advantage playing close to the cliff, especially on the second shot where the further away you play from it, the better... really a 3-shot hole

14) Semi-blind off the tee, second shot is kind of fun... possibility for ground game.

15) Average par 3 with a great view and bunkers on the left to make sure the hole has nothing to do with the scenery.

16) Akward tee shot, too long is dead, left is bunkers, should play 3-wood off the tee, even if it's a long hole. then standard golf from there.

17) I like that hole, Even though it's the 3rd par three downhill over a cliff, it has some character for some reason. I don't blame it on McBroom for the repetitive par-3, the site is cliff and small plateau and cliff...

18) Long par 4 into the wind, no real strategy, hit the fairway and long, hit the green on the second shot.

McBroom had a hard site to start with, avoided to create 1 or 2 real stupid holes, which is a good accomplishment. Sadly to, he might have, could have had a better routing if he tried to built a par 70 6700 yards course on such a severe site... marketing won again with the necessity of 7300 yards and par 72.

People would look at scenery and think it's great, I look at golf and think it's OK

The berm on the highway is horrendous... too bad there's no roadlayoutatlas.com, that person would be sent to jail!!!

jmorrison

Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2008, 08:17:41 PM »
I have held my breath for a very long time and have finally read enough crap "dumb blonde award" from one Philippe Binette. My suggestion to you would be to ask questions before blurting such crap in an open forum. That is all that I will say as I'm not interested in getting into a verbal back and forth.

Tobiano is a very good designed and constructed golf course. One of Tom McBroom's greatest strengths is how he routes a golf course and how he brings in the natural environment and contours into it.

It is very unfortunate to see Yannick's photo and his comments about the lack of trees.  Many people are likely not aware of the Pine Beetle epidemic that is affecting British Columbia that is costing the forestry industry millions of dollars.  Some of the holes were designed with these tree's playing and integral part in how the golf hole would play (Holes 1, 10, 11 & 16).
Yannick the reasoning for the aerial shots is that the developer owns a helicopter and loved to fly overhead to check on the crews... ;)

The comment that was made about only building golf courses because of the view than the actual golf course couldn't be any more incorrect for this particular piece of property.  This was a great piece of property that had a lot of natural landforms that were used for tee's, greens and bunkers. There was some earth moving to fill large ravins but very limited earthwork on most of the Front Nine.  Although the houses will take away from some of the views they will deifinatly not take away all.

THere was NEVER any intent for the bunkering to have a Coore/Crenshaw ragged edged look.  If that is what is being portrayed then the superintendent has decided to alter somewhat. In regards to the white cilica sand, that was choice of both ownership and Tom MCBroom. The owner wanted something that was going to be different and Tom wanted the bunkers to be distingushable from the native surrounds.

Robert Thompson is absolutley correct about the fescue. Over time this grass will thin out as it was seeded with a mixture of rye and fescue grasses. The same comments have been made about Tower Ranch!

Comparisons to Tower Ranch......Tower Ranch is a golf course with a lot more variety off of the tee and some unique and beautiful views. The bunkering and contouring is very similiar and unfortunately is cart mandatory. The development on Tower Ranch will in no way effect how the course plays or effect the views. The Club at Tower Ranch will be opening all 18 holes this Friday.

Interesting that Mr. Mingay has no comment as he visited the site frequently during construction and never had anything negative to say. I'm guessing it is all to positive to mention here ;)
Oh by the way Tobiano will have a 2 year head start on Sagebrush as it opened in summer of 2007.

Regards,

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2008, 09:03:10 PM »
Mr Morrison,

I would just say that I didn't say it's a bad course, after all a dumb blonde is still a hot blonde (laughs)

Tobiano is a hard site and McBroom did the job to make it work, which as I just said is already an accomplishment.
Because of the quality of the views and the dramatics, Tobiano will probably win the best new course in Canada, and that's OK.
Before calling one of the world next wonder, there's a step.

As for Sagebrush, it's not either the world next wonder... It takes a lot of stuff to make a course great, whether Tobiano is better or not than Sagebrush, I don't know and I don't care... Some people will appreciate the 'definition' of Tobiano to the 'openess' of Sagebrush, some people might think Sagebrush is fun, some might say it's over the top. Who knows... Then it's all personal opinions and that's OK.

I just don't want the marketing people to decide what to consider is great (applicable for both courses)

Down the line: Both courses ain't Royal Melbourne, Shinnecock Hills, Muirfield etc. To me, there are great courses, which take time and great care to establish themselves, and there is the rest...

I'm just reserving the word great to the real elite... 


Yannick Pilon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2008, 06:32:11 AM »
jmorrison,

My comment on the lack of trees should not be perceived as a negative one.  I was only pointing out the fact that the lack of trees on site is going to make the homes very visible, and I beleive that these homes will most likely be an eyesore on an otherwise spectacular site.  Especially since there seems that there will be so many of them

You are right about the Pine Beetle Epidemic, this is an environmental catastrophy that is especially evident around Kamloops and along the road towards Merritt....

YP
www.yannickpilongolf.com - Golf Course Architecture, Quebec, Canada

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2008, 08:48:53 AM »
What about the economic outlook for the course?  If I recall correctly, Tobiano is around Kamloops.

My memories of Kamloops are from the great Blazers WHL teams of the Hitchcock era.  Part of those memories was the challenges involved in a trip up to Kamloops.   (I lived in Portland, OR)

While Ignoish, NS is certainly remote, it's probably an easier location for folks in Toronto, Montreal, or the NE USA than Kamloops.

How would Kamloops compare, access wise, to the spot on Vancouver Island where Gil Hanse is designing a new course?


Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2008, 01:01:06 PM »

Dan,

I live in the Vancouver area and go up to the Okanagan frequently as we have a cottage at Predator Ridge. Kamloops is about a 3 hour drive from downtown Vancouver, almost all of that freeway so an easy drive. There is also regular service to Kamloops from Vancouver, Calgary and Seattle by air so it is quite easy to get to.  Tobiano is about 10 miles west of Kamloops on the old Trans Canada Highway. Getting there is not a problem.  The other Okanagan courses around Vernon, Kelowna and further south are also not far away from Kamloops.

There are some other good courses in the area such as the Dunes and the older RTJ course, Riverview (although the latter flows through a 70s subdivision).

I assume the success of Tobiano will depend on the success of real estate sales and from what I saw of the plans, there are going to be a heck of a lot of houses and a major hotel is also in the works. The real estate market has slowed down only recently around here and no doubt it will affect Tobiano's chances of early success. I agree with earlier comments to the effect that it is better to play there now before all of the housing is built.

The Gil Hanse course you mentioned is at Union Bay on the east coast of Vancouver Island. I have heard that it may be on hold but cannot confirm that. I know that another member of this board drove by a month or so ago and there did not appear to be any activity.  I recently looked at Gil's website and there is no recent information on the course. Getting to Union Bay from Vancouver involves a drive to the ferry terminal, a 90 minute ferry ride and then another hour or more drive north from Nanaimo. With waiting for the ferry it would take much longer to get there than to Kamloops.

Regards,



Andrew Balakshin

Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2008, 02:02:06 PM »
Have they cut down most of the trees on the site?




Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2008, 02:33:29 PM »
I live in the Vancouver area and go up to the Okanagan frequently as we have a cottage at Predator Ridge. Kamloops is about a 3 hour drive from downtown Vancouver, almost all of that freeway so an easy drive. There is also regular service to Kamloops from Vancouver, Calgary and Seattle by air so it is quite easy to get to.  Tobiano is about 10 miles west of Kamloops on the old Trans Canada Highway. Getting there is not a problem.  The other Okanagan courses around Vernon, Kelowna and further south are also not far away from Kamloops.
Kelowna appears to be about 2 hours south of Kamloops and there are several direct flights every day into Kelowna from Toronto as well as several other cities.  It is also closer to many of the other Okanagan courses such as Predator Ridge.

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2008, 03:51:26 PM »
 Andrew,

There are still some trees on the back nine but many have been cut down. There are many stumps and I am assuming it was the mountain pine beetle problem. You can see hillsides across the road with many infected pines and presumably some of the little devils got into Tobiano. For those that have not seen it, the devastation throughout the interior of British Columbia as a result of this beetle is incredible. The trees turn red after they die and there are thousands of square miles of them.

In any event, Tobiano is not really about trees. It doesn't need them.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2008, 09:28:10 PM »
My 2 favorite provinces - BC and NS.  And I grew up 5 miles from ON.

Golf in Canada is really great, and I encourage all to visit.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tobiano - Best new in Canada...
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2008, 04:15:57 AM »
Jeepers!  This hole is very, very serious.  This entire site looks very harsh for golf.  How much acerage is used?


Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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