News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« on: June 29, 2008, 01:03:48 AM »
Given it’s appearance on the recent Top 30 Muni’s thread (ranked 15th), I thought I’d post a few pictures from a recent round at Jim Engh’s Fossil Trace in Golden, Colorado. I can’t say I’ve played anything like it, although it has some of JE’s best-known features – his muscle bunkers, the bowl greens. The property has a variety of different characters – part of it is flat, part quite hilly, part with wetlands, and part through a former clay mine, so in this case the style unifies, and helps to keep the place from having too schizophrenic a feel.

The first is a downhill par 5, with both a tee shot and second shot that are partially blind. This is one of those holes that I feel like I’ll figure out some day, given enough plays. The lower fairway has an old smokestack in the middle of it, which really doesn’t do anything for me, per se, but it's one of a number of items leftover from the property's history as a mine. Here’s a shot of it from the 18th tee, the approaches would be coming downhill from the right:



Once you get past that part of the fairway, the hole flattens out. Here’s a shot of the approach:



The second is another sharply downhill hole, and the first of many short par 4’s on the course. In the case of Fossil Trace, a number of the shorter holes on the course seem more a result of the necessities of the property rather than an architectural choice, per se, and this is one of them. You can see this in the proximity of the outside world behind the second green. The green is certainly driveable, but you can’t see the green from the tee, as this is your view of the rumpled fairway below. It’s a lot of fun for someone like me who isn’t going for the green to see your shot land on that ground, disappear and reappear lower down.



And the approach:



The 3rd is an uphill par 3, and is followed by the par 4 fourth, which is a hole that didn’t do much for me at first, as it seemed a bit plain-jane after the first two holes, but I now consider it a favorite. The green shape provides a number of small pinning areas that make the approach interesting.

4th Tee:



4th Green:



The fifth is a VERY short par 3 (that still managed to pin a double on one of my playing partners, much to his chagrin), and the sixth is a straight par 4 with a center-line bunker that I never manage to get anywhere near (and I can’t understand why anyone would ever go left of it, with wetlands and water all down the left side). The 7th is a really funky uphill, short par 4. Your choices are to hit short of the central bunker, leaving an uphill blind shot over said bunker, try to hit in the short grass either side of the bunker, or go for the green (perhaps not do-able from the tips, at least for mere mortals).



From the right, closer to the green:



The 8th is one of my favorites on the front, a twisting par 4 with a nicely rumpled fairway. I don’t have a decent picture off the tee, but here’s one of the approach:



And the green:



I don’t have photos of the ninth or 10th, both are par 4-s, the 10th is another shortie, reachable if you’re willing to contend with water, and I’m lacking a photo of the 11th, a par 3 with a long, narrow green and pot bunkers short right, and left of the green.

The 12th, from the tee – visually a most striking hole.



Second shot (I really like Jim's contouring of these fairways):



The approach:



The 13th is a downhill par 4 really requires you to think if you want to hit off of flat ground on your second. The cut in the rock formation could have been more artfully done...





The 14th is an uphill par three with a crazy two-tiered green. The rise between the lower and upper levels has to be at least eight feet. One player in my group tried three times to putt from the bottom to the top level, and didn’t make it. In this case the bowl area surrounding the back of the green was shaved to fairway length, so if he’d just putted well past the hole, he would have been redirected back to the pin. On most of the other greens on the course that have bowl-like surrounds, the bowl area is actually mowed at rough height, and the balls will stick, leaving dicey downhill chips.



The fifteenth is a fairly narrow par five that dips downhill sharply just before the green, with a rockpile to the right of the fairway just as the downhill slide begins. Even though the green is blind from the fairway, you get a really good view of it from the 12th tee. In the third picture below you can see a fan built in to blow across this green. This green truly is in a low-lying, bowl-shaped area. I can see that this hole wouldn’t be for everyone, but I really enjoyed it. Maybe after I play there a few more times, I might try going for the narrow route down to the green to the right of the rockpile. Contrived? Perhaps. Classic architecture? Perhaps not. I guess I’m just enough of a heathen to enjoy it ! The tee shot:



Here you can just see the top of the pin for the approach:



And a look at the green, the rockpile, and the fan:



The 16th is fairly short par 3 over water and a gnarly bunker to one of my favorite greens on the course. And yes, one of my playing partners was rocking an untucked shirt, white socks, and black shoes. And I enjoyed his company very much!



The 17th and 18th are parallel on opposite sides of a small lake, with the water on the right of each hole. The 17th is the last shortish par 4 with a green framed by a pair of the nastiest bunkers on the course. If I have one complaint regarding these bunkers, it’s that they’re awfully hard to climb in and out of. If the grass had been wet around them, I would have had to settle in for the night, as I’d never have been able to climb out.

The 17th Green:



And the course finishes with a fairly straightforward par 5 curving around water on the right, to a green that is all too happy to redirect your approach into the bunker on the left:



I know that this course may not be everyone’s cup of tea. It’s thoroughly modern, and there were some compromises made  to allow a new course to be built right in the middle of town -  but it provides a heck of a fun ride, it’s not overly expensive, it’s hilly, but walkable if you were to so choose, and while it’s not a long course it’s also not easy by any means. The long hitter might not feel like he’s getting enough opportunities to really stretch it out. I’d be interested in hearing some opinions on that front. I really enjoyed playing it.

Jay Flemma has a glowing writeup on the course here:  http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=165
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 01:11:05 AM by Kirk Gill »
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Seth Berliner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2008, 10:49:29 AM »
I think Fossil Trace is a good example of the type of course that everyone should play once.  Out-of-towners particularly seem to like the golf course because of the topography and eye candy.  Personally, I think there are other great public course options in the Denver Metro Area that would be higher on my list before Fossil Trace. 

I will say this, I played in a Colorado Section event there about a month ago and for a golf course that has as many rounds as they do, it was in wonderful condition.

Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2008, 01:00:19 PM »
Hey Kirk.

Great pix...especially of 1!  Nice work with the incinerator...did you avoid it.

Wanna see some zany pix of the fossil monuments?  I actually hit a ball on one of the sandstone turrets in the fairway that DON'T have fossils...Jim said, "65 million years to find it, 12 years to build it and he hits the monument on the first try and it sticks.  You're hittin' that ball."

Then he bet me I couldn't do it again if I tried and I missed by ten feet only.  he made me play it where it lay...in fact, he chased me up the monument with my own ball retriever!



Let me tell you...one of the scariest shots I've ever tried to hit.


Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2008, 01:02:27 PM »
Oh..and here's a triceratops.  Say hi to Dr. Martin Lockley of the University of Denver.


Peter Pallotta

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2008, 01:30:43 PM »
Kirk -

thanks - I don't know the course and have been to that part of the US only once, and briefly. Appreciate the pics. I also liked this comment a lot:

"The property has a variety of different characters – part of it is flat, part quite hilly, part with wetlands, and part through a former clay mine, so in this case the style unifies, and helps to keep the place from having too schizophrenic a feel."

A neat idea, a strong style acting as unifier for disparate sites. I hadn't thought of it that way before

Peter

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2008, 01:43:34 PM »
IHMO, the best hole on the course is the one with the least eye-candy, #4.  I also thought many of the greens were quite good.  Not a big fan of #12, but I've gone 15 rounds with Matt Ward on that one a few times already.

Cheers,
Brad

Matt_Ward

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2008, 02:29:28 PM »
Brad:

I hear what you say about the 12th - we agree to disagree on that one.
Suffice to say, if the hole were designed by one of the "name" people here on GCA I see plenty of others (maybe not you) who would say otherwise about the hole.

In regards to the 4th -- I think the start of Fossil Trace is quite good and the hole you mentioned often gets lost in the discussion. The only thing I really can't figure out is the lame 5th -- which Doug Wright simply loves. FT is a tale of two different courses -- the front is much more spread out and I see the back side where Engh did quite well given the limited amount of space.

Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2008, 03:14:14 PM »
Brad:

I hear what you say about the 12th - we agree to disagree on that one.
Suffice to say, if the hole were designed by one of the "name" people here on GCA I see plenty of others (maybe not you) who would say otherwise about the hole.

In regards to the 4th -- I think the start of Fossil Trace is quite good and the hole you mentioned often gets lost in the discussion. The only thing I really can't figure out is the lame 5th -- which Doug Wright simply loves. FT is a tale of two different courses -- the front is much more spread out and I see the back side where Engh did quite well given the limited amount of space.

Jim said it was a decision based on pragmatism...the road is along the left and he didn't want people hooking long irons and hybrids into road and killing motorists.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 05:43:01 PM »
Jay - I did miss the incinerator smokestack, but in the lamest possible way. You see that hill beyond it in the picture? I was somewhere up there...Love that shot of Jim pointing out your ball up on that column. You need to tell us where that ball went !

As to the fifth, it IS really short, about 100 yards, and what's interesting is that Jim Engh didn't respond to having a super-short hole in a typical, let's-surround-it-with-bunkers sorta way, There are wetlands to snag the too-much-finesse (i.e. short) attempt, and instead of adding length for what would typically be the longer tees, the teeing area is a sort of semi-circle, and the black tees are far over to the left bringing the left front bunker much more into play, and the gold far to the right to test you with the bunkering over there, and the two forward tees more in the middle, making the angle of approach easier. The length of the hole makes it seems an obvious compromise when you play it, but the compromise was dealt with in an interesting, and to my limited mind, a creative way.

I'd really like to know how the course plays for the longer hitters. It was very friendly for us short-ballers, and I don't just mean the fifth. I can see a long hitter being tempted a lot on the course, and perhaps being made to pay on occasion for giving in...

As to the 12th, if the choice for Jim Engh was to either leave those columns or remove them, it seems like leaving them was a no-brainer. I don't know that I'd like to see the Monument Valley effect on EVERY course, but I'm telling you, the feeling of coming across it the first time is thrilling, and it gives you a lot to think about on every shot.

I can see what Seth was saying in his post about playing FT just once, but I guess I disagree, in that I get a sense from the course that there's a lot of subtlety to discover on those holes, and some local knowledge to be found, and some reward available for learning. I do agree with Seth that there's a number of good local publics around the Denver area, but particularly on the west side of town, FT is a great option.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 07:05:11 PM »
This golf course in this location is quite amazing to me.  I took a geology course in college that had a field session in this very place when it was a clay pit.  If I remember correctly, the clay   was being mined and used by Coors to produce various products made of porcelain at a plant near the brewery.  With the growth in Golden over the last 20 years,  I didn't realize there was that much property left in that location to built a course.   I did have the opportunity to glance at the course about a year ago and it appears very nice.  Looking forward to playing in the near future.  Thanks for the pictures. 

Mike Bowline

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 09:49:57 PM »
As to the fifth, it IS really short, about 100 yards, and what's interesting is that Jim Engh didn't respond to having a super-short hole in a typical, let's-surround-it-with-bunkers sorta way, There are wetlands to snag the too-much-finesse (i.e. short) attempt, and instead of adding length for what would typically be the longer tees, the teeing area is a sort of semi-circle, and the black tees are far over to the left bringing the left front bunker much more into play, and the gold far to the right to test you with the bunkering over there, and the two forward tees more in the middle, making the angle of approach easier. The length of the hole makes it seems an obvious compromise when you play it, but the compromise was dealt with in an interesting, and to my limited mind, a creative way.

I have only played FT one time, thinking it over-priced for the quality when compared to other courses in greater Denver area.

I recall some serious overhead power lines very close to (behind?) #5 green that led to the length of the hole being so short.

Because power lines crossing a hole and being in harm's way of flying golf balls is to be avoided at all costs, I understood the compromise in the length of #5.

Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2008, 11:08:30 AM »
Kirk, I'll post some more photos when I get back tonight.  Yeah 12 is a treat.  The fairway is wide enough and the monuments small enough, that you really have to hit a bad shot or get REALLY unlucky to be snookered completely.

You guys are right.  Four is probly the most underated hole on the front, but only because there are so many good holes on the front.

Quick poll question:  it's 3 p.m. and you can only get one round in today...which do you play, fossil or red hawk ridge?

BTW - here's a great twofer - Fossil Trace at sunrise, red Hawk at Sunset!

Sunrise at Pradera, Sunset at Sanctuary!

Chris Moore

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2008, 06:18:06 PM »
Those clay columns look like a hole you would find on a Golden Tee video game. 

Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2008, 07:24:58 PM »
more fossils



12 green



the back door shortcut to 15 green


Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 09:52:02 PM »
Those clay columns look like a hole you would find on a Golden Tee video game. 

I understand that they're not typical, they're not traditional. But they are a natural feature of the land where the course was built. I suppose that the follow-up argument would be that a golf course doesn't belong there then, but that argument could be made about a lot of land around this state where golf courses have been built. Chris, what would you have had the architect do? Level the colums? Turn down the job? Or use them, as he did, in a way that is interesting, at least to many who have played the course?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2008, 10:47:15 PM »
Before playing it, I was very skeptical of the monolithic rock hole.  While I think there are some gimmicks at Fossil Trace (the rock pile on #15 would be Exhibit A in my book), the stone column hole is a good one.  The columns actually aren't very intrusive. 

Kirk, you make a good point about Engh's style tying in the diverse pieces of the course.  I wonder, though, whether a different, less assertive and (in my view) visually jarring approach might have achieved a similar effect. 

Chris Moore

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2008, 08:47:17 AM »
Those clay columns look like a hole you would find on a Golden Tee video game. 

I understand that they're not typical, they're not traditional. But they are a natural feature of the land where the course was built. I suppose that the follow-up argument would be that a golf course doesn't belong there then, but that argument could be made about a lot of land around this state where golf courses have been built. Chris, what would you have had the architect do? Level the colums? Turn down the job? Or use them, as he did, in a way that is interesting, at least to many who have played the course?

I have not played the course, so it is really hard for me to comment.  The fact that those pillars/columns (and the rockpile in the subsequently posted picture) were there when the course was routed does not minimize or excuse the reality that those features are abrupt and unusual.  If those pillars/columns were trees, they would surely be removed.  And aren't those things the remnant of mining/digging operations?  Hard to say they are natural features of the land if they were created that way.  And I swear there is a hole on my Golden Tee (Blackberry version) golf game that features rock/dirt pillars within the confines of the playing corridors.   

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2008, 10:38:42 PM »
Kirk,

Thanks for the writeup.  Fwiw, I think those columns on 12 look spectacular as well.  It may not be everyones cup of tea but it looks like fun to me.  I love to see new and interesting things on the golf course that you rarely see.  This kind of quirk ought to be rewarded and praised more often.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2008, 11:58:28 PM »
Thanks Kalen.

I've been thinking about this course some, as it relates to a couple other threads that are going on right now - Mr. Mucci's thread about what's wrong with the building of ultra expensive courses, and the ongoing debate about the new Castle course. I can totally understand how Mr. Morrow feels about building golf courses on land that isn't really all that appropriate for golf, and on that count I shudder to think of what he'd think of Fossil Trace. But the reality is that I don't live in Scotland, or near an ocean, and while there may be land better suited for golf around the Denver area than the land where Jim Engh built Fossil Trace, the people of Golden win when a course that's this good and this fun can be built in their community. I don't  know whether moving 400,000 cubic yards of dirt and spending $12 million is grossly excessive or right in the current ballpark (I haven't built a golf course of my own lately), but a Golden resident pays $41 to play the course, if they're willing to walk (and many were walking the day I was there). It's not cheap, but it's not $235 like the course referenced in Pat Mucci's thread. The course was packed on a Thursday, and the only way I got on was because of a cancellation. There's no doubt that "beauracracies and legal entanglements" had at least something to do with how long it took to build this course, and how much it cost - but at the same time a collaborative effort was formed that allowed many concerns to be addressed and fulfilled without any legal action.

Is this course representative of something wrong with golf, or is it a model of how a municipal course can be built in this day and age?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2008, 01:08:29 PM »
Those clay columns look like a hole you would find on a Golden Tee video game. 

I understand that they're not typical, they're not traditional. But they are a natural feature of the land where the course was built. I suppose that the follow-up argument would be that a golf course doesn't belong there then, but that argument could be made about a lot of land around this state where golf courses have been built. Chris, what would you have had the architect do? Level the colums? Turn down the job? Or use them, as he did, in a way that is interesting, at least to many who have played the course?

Guys somehow this post got butchered, but I was trying to say that while it would be a bit much on every course, it fits well here.

hey look, Geoff shackelford says you can allow a designer one joke per course, so consider it Engh having some fun with us.

Tim...please take another look at the rock pile on 15 and in particular the piux I show above.  That's one Jim's design features - he calls them trapdoors and hidden staircases...its a secret entrance to the green that if you know the course and find yourself in the wrong place, you can still use it to your advantage!  Its a strategic option.  I think its pretty cool..and hey...more options is a good thing!  Might you possibly be turned around on it?

I'll agree that we might not want to do it every time, but it fits well with this course though....

I have not played the course, so it is really hard for me to comment.  The fact that those pillars/columns (and the rockpile in the subsequently posted picture) were there when the course was routed does not minimize or excuse the reality that those features are abrupt and unusual.  If those pillars/columns were trees, they would surely be removed.  And aren't those things the remnant of mining/digging operations?  Hard to say they are natural features of the land if they were created that way.  And I swear there is a hole on my Golden Tee (Blackberry version) golf game that features rock/dirt pillars within the confines of the playing corridors.   
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 10:08:28 PM by Jay Flemma »

Mike Bowline

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 08:27:08 PM »
... a Golden resident pays $41 to play the course, if they're willing to walk (and many were walking the day I was there). It's not cheap, but it's not $235 like the course referenced in Pat Mucci's thread.

The fee is $41 Mon-Thurs for a Golden resident. Fri-Sun it is $46. Non-county residents will pay $58 to walk. And Golden is not very big, so the majority of players are paying $58 + $17 for a cart = $75.  That ain't cheap.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2008, 08:54:44 PM »
Mike, point taken. I was making a point about it as a municipal course, but you're right, many of the customers are not Golden residents, and are paying a lot more than $41. It's not the cheapest public option around. But they still appear to be doing pretty good business.

Have you been out and played it? I'm still wondering what a longer hitter thinks of the course.....
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2008, 10:12:28 PM »
Kirk, I'll tell you what a long hitter DID to the course!  Jim Engh hit his own 630 yard par-5 in two with driver, wood!  Here's the course pro, Jim Hajek bowing in homage to him!  Cowtow to the Czar!  All Hail!


Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2008, 10:39:28 PM »

Tim...please take another look at the rock pile on 15 and in particular the piux I show above.  That's one Jim's design features - he calls them trapdoors and hidden staircases...its a secret entrance to the green that if you know the course and find yourself in the wrong place, you can still use it to your advantage!  Its a strategic option.  I think its pretty cool..and hey...more options is a good thing!  Might you possibly be turned around on it?

Jay,

I played there today, as a matter of fact.  Why not remove the rock pile?  You'd have the same effect to the right side of the green.  What's the point of the rockpile other than (strange) eye candy?  If it's to be a hazard, I think that's too severe. 

Jay Flemma

Re: Fossil Trace, Golden Colorado
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2008, 10:52:14 PM »
Tim, the point of the rock pile is optical illusion.  Look at the two pix again.  In the top one...IT LOOKS LIKE THE FAIRWAY ENDS THERE...but it doesn't the right side, behind the rockpile is a hidden, secret way to get to the green.  You can take advantage of this option.  Its a secret the course reveals to you upon multiple plays!  Isn't that what a great course is supposed to do...give you options?  Have some character?

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back