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Mark Bourgeois

A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« on: June 29, 2008, 12:14:03 AM »
Here are two articles -- sorry to break them into pieces.  The first describes the fascinating method ("photographic supervision") Mackenzie used to oversee the reconstruction of Castletown Golf Links on the Isle of Man.  The second reviews the completed course.

Kinda interesting to think about this as a course where he never set foot during construction -- without knowing of photographic supervision, one might conclude this was little more than a hit-and-run job where his involvement totaled just the initial plan.

The club has no records to confirm Mackenzie's involvement nor have any photographs turned up; however, these articles seem pretty clear indications he deserves some kind of design credit, if not post-Ross then pre-WWII.

As Tom MacW noted in another thread, Mackenzie did refer to Castletown in "Golf Architecture."  Also, Neil Crafter has turned up a number of sources, including Kroeger's book on Old Tom Morris, stating Mackenzie's redesign.

This photographic supervision: it's fascinating, isn't it?  From the start of his career MacKenzie found himself at odds with greenkeepers, green committees, "amateurs," et al who he saw as thwarting or incompetently executing his plans.  It's interesting to speculate that many things for which MacKenzie is known -- principles, fancy routing maps, using local assistants, articles, and lectures -- may have had as their primary aim the successful implementation of his ideas, rather than the publicizing or marketing of said ideas or simple expediency.

Just speculation, but how could a guy who saw so few of his finished designs manage to get so lucky with great designs?  Wouldn't he have to be able to enunciate his ideas and intentions, but also somehow ensure others both understood and agreed with those intentions?

Anyone with teenagers or in a managerial position can appreciate how difficult these things are to accomplish! Hiring the "right" people obviously is important, but how would he know they were the "right" people when he used local people, never saw the finished product, and didn't work with them again? And wouldn't he need to do more than hire to succeed?  What's the point of his principles if not this?  Were they primarily for marketing?

He wrote of facing similar frustrations in teaching and delegating camouflage work (engineers and military men being the primary targets there).  So this communication / oversight challenge must have occupied a lot of his thinking time, yet how much do we know about how he operated?

IMHO it make sense that he would experiment with a variety of tools and methods aimed at communication of and adherence to his intentions, that these tools and methods served this specific purpose, not simply marketing.

Wonder if he tried photographic supervision again, and if not, why not?

First article appears in this post.  Second article to follow in next post.

Mark






Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2008, 12:15:59 AM »
Here's the second article, a review of the course from the Guardian dated (ominously) 17 August 1914.

Mark




Neil_Crafter

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2008, 05:32:32 AM »
Mark
Thought it would be useful to include the material I have put together that supports Mackenzie being involved at Castletown, which is contrary to Doak Scott and Haddock (DSH) which list it as being incorrectly attributed to Mackenzie:

Redesigned existing 1892 course in 1927 according to Hawtree (Colt & Co), while Cornish & Whitten list as a redesign with no date. Listed in AM 1923 advertisement so work must have commenced prior to 1923. DSH suggest course is incorrectly attributed to AM and was actually redesigned by Mackenzie Ross in 1947, hence the confusion, which is incorrect. Kroeger (1995) makes the situation clear about this original Tom Morris designed layout ca1892, "Sometime prior to 1920 Dr. Alister Mackenzie altered the course and apparently performed signiicant construction since he mentions the course in his book 'Golf Architecture' (1920). Dr. Mackenzie wrote that the horse scraper was used with success at Castletown, meaning that he moved earth to form land contours, including mounds and bunkers. After World War II, Mackenzie Ross, architect of Turnberry, remodelled the course into its present state." AM wrote of Castletown (p71-72), "The scraper has been used with considerable success at Castletown (Isle of Man), Wheatley Park (Doncaster), and Grange-over-Sands, among other courses." 

With the added information from the Guardian articles there seems little doubt of Mackenzie's involvement.
cheers Neil

Sean_A

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2008, 06:14:27 AM »
I find this fascinating.  If somebody can do a good search, they should find pix I posted back in 2006 - I would appreciate another look.  I would also submit this as an example of minimalist bunkering on the part of Dr Mac. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2008, 10:09:28 AM »
Sean

Searched -- using "new and improved" engine -- but did not find. Perhaps you could search your prior posts, as the stalking feature has been removed for the rest of us.

Also, I don't think the course you played can be called a MacKenzie -- unless you're referring to Mackenzie Ross.  As we've seen with AM's 15th being today's 17th, AM's course played to 6,150 yards whereas today's plays to 6,707.  Lastly, the reference in the first article to the short 5th: today's 5th plays 423 yards!

In fact, let me pull out the hole references from those articles and we can speculate on what from today's course may fit the descriptions -- having never seen it myself, this is a game best played by you!

Mark

Thomas MacWood

Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2008, 10:19:56 AM »
MacKenzie also mentioned Castletown in his address to the British greenkeepers.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2008, 10:35:00 AM »
First, here's an overhead from the course website:




Next, apparently the original 15th is now the 17th. Here are a few pics from the course website -- awesome!






And here are the hole descriptions in the articles:

5th: "the new short fifth hole, with its impressive green"
14th: "the fourteenth, played in new country, with the green magnificently situated among heather-covered hummocks"
15th: "the exquisite view from the new fifteenth"

If today's 17th is at least in part the AM 15th, wonder what might be the AM 14th -- assuming it wasn't obliterated (possibly a dubious assumption)?

The current 15th green would be too far from current 17 tee to qualify as AM 14, yes? Maybe current 16 green is AM 14 green?

And where would AM's 16-18 holes be? Maybe the clubhouse originally was up the coast and:
AM 16 = Current 5
AM 17 = Current 6
AM 18 = Current 7

Of course, the 600 or so additional yards had to come from somewhere and perhaps Ross plowed over AM 16-18 to create three longer holes (5-7).

Perhaps I should write the pro...

Sean, you've played AM and M Ross courses -- any greens out there strike you as more AM than MR?

Mark

Bill_McBride

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2008, 12:35:56 PM »
There's a couple of fascinating references in this second article. 

The tee amongst the rocks on #15 (now #17) sounds a lot like what Dr Mackenzie proposed to do at Cypress Point.  What a great hole that would have been if this could have been accomplished, a fitting end to a great round instead of a struggle and anti-climax!

And then there's the reference to Biarritz!  I have never seen much about Biarritz other than a vague description of the chasm hole, but this article refers to "the coast views seen from the (Biarritz) course."

Great research, Mark, I wonder what's involved in getting to the Isle of Man for a round at Castletown.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2008, 01:14:23 PM »
Bill, There are ferries and there is an air link from the UK - you more or less land alongside the fairways. Green fees are very reasonable http://www.golfiom.com/course/rates.html and there are lots of other fun courses on the island - Rowany, Douglas and many more. If you manage to get the weather right it's an idyllic place. The only problem is that it's in the middle of the Irish Sea and seems to be even wetter than Ireland! I believe that the Derby horse race began life on this very [golf] course, but then they said the same thing about that mad hotel some of you stayed in for the Hoylake BUDA Cup.

Hope you flourish, Mark.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2008, 01:58:43 PM »
Ernie Payne (who has played all the courses in Scotland and related by marriage to James Braid ) will be playing at Castletown as part of the Old
Tom Morris Centenary Celebrations on the 2nd July.

I am told that the current 1st  (easy starter hole) 4th (dogleg)   and 5th (another dogleg along the road - well rated) are original Old Tom holes with Mackenzie modifying the rest. As shown on the above map of the course.

Bill

Four courses have a connection with Old Tom on the Isle of Man

a) Douglas (in its original location, mentioned by Tulloch & Kroeger
as Duchess Head – the club moved away to other sites before returning after WW2 to within a mile of their original Old Tom course at Duchess Head which is just South of Douglas

b) Ramsey

c) Castletown

d) King Edward Bay (also known as Howstrake). This course has at times been confused by others as Douglas (Duchess Head) but is actually located north of Douglas and away from Duchess Head. It is a rather hilly course (some may require a Caaaarrrrrrtttttttt)

Travel to the Isle of Man is easy and Castletown in regarded by many as the best course on the island – would be an ideal place for a BUDA competition but take Mark's warning - it can be wet!


Tony_Muldoon

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2008, 05:37:03 PM »
Nice discovery Mark. 

Isn't it also possible that this 'photo supervision' is a marketing pitch?  In those days development of photos  took a few days, or even weeks, making it hard to use them for quick communication  (unless the ground crew came with a home lab and someone trained to develop their own).  Also wasn't the “Grauniad” based in Manchester, making it more likely that the Leeds based Dr Mac could get a story placed?  Just speculation on my part.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 05:42:08 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2008, 05:43:43 PM »
Its a pity the pix can't be found.  I was very impressed with Castletown.  The closers get the press, but #s 3-10 are the heart of the course with #5 being being an incredibly tough hole in the wind.  Its extremely narrow bending to the right with the lay of the land falling that way as well.  The thing is, there is an entrance road on the right which is oob.  I don't get the sense that #5 is a modern Mac Ross creation.  It feels very old to me especially given the access road situation which is really quite dangerous.  I am guessing that the road is no more than 25 feet from the fairway, probably less.  However, far all that, the star of the show may be the wee 4th.  One of the great short 4s in GB&I.  Its certainly reachable despite its listed length of ~350 yards, but one has to fly a no mans land. 

I don't know how much Dr Mac is left as I didn't know Dr Mac had anything to do with the course.  If I had to guess, I would say holes 6-10 are Dr Mac because of their situation of stretching toward the boys school into flatter spit of land which basically connects the remainder of the course to the island.  The holes which immediately follow these up to the high area (holes 16-18) are not of such great architectural interest, but there are goos spots.  In general, the greens are fairly tame, not unusual for such a windy place. 

The pic of #17 is a bit misleading.  That carry is not nearly so daunting as it looks and there is space to bail left.  Now 18 is a real cracker.  There is a spit cut of water which drives into the fairway making approaches very dicey downwind when the hole is cut right.  Its a magnificent finisher because it ain't long, just tricky - especially since the tee shot is a bit blind and the choice of club and line is paramount to success. 

I have a lot of time for Castletown, but I do recognize that its a bit primitive and raw - not everybody's cup of tea.  I reckon those who love places like Machrihanish and perhaps more accurately Southerness would love Castletown.  In fact, I would say Southerness is Castletown's nearest cousin as both are heavily influenced by Mac Ross.

Ciao   
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 05:46:37 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2008, 06:31:09 PM »
Tony,

Interesting about the camera technology; you're sure about that?

Re marketing: to what end? What marketing purpose would it have served?  It's not like they were golf pornography (finished product) pics!

Neil Crafter has made the point that clubs did not like architects to spend any more time on site than necessary, to save money: photographic supervision might simply have been a cost-saving tool.  That might be used as marketing, but then isn't it odd this is the sole reference to the method?

I return to an earlier question: was this approach somehow considered a failure?  Did he ever do this again? Well, we know he had a photographer follow him around at CPC to record the course for posterity.  Interesting that there are two connections, very tenuous and the product of an overeager imagination, between Castletown and CPC (drive across chasm plus some form of photographic supervision).

Wonder who paid for the cost of the photography? I assume the club; however...

Quote
"The greatest achievement is that the architect's scheme has been carried out..."

Yes our man Spalding at times seemed to just parrot the ideas of MacK. He certainly took AM's side of things, not just in these articles but in pretty much every other where he referenced AM.

By the way, there was a reference in the Guardian in Summer 1914 that J.G. Samuels was Castletown's greenkeeper.  Unclear when his appointment began: probably after AM came along.

Interestingly, his prior employer was Harrogate -- which Mackenzie redesigned in 1912. Aha!

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2008, 06:35:15 PM »
Sean

It would appear that 5 is OTM. Wonder whether there's any of AM 16 in current 18?

Interesting about the new ground AM got to being inland; any chance the new ground was closer to the sea? I could see in the days of the featherie and topped shots the inland holes coming first, the cliffside holes coming with the Haskell. Who knows, really...

According to the website, work is underway on the course now -- were you aware of this?

Mark

Sean_A

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2008, 01:55:10 AM »
Sean

It would appear that 5 is OTM. Wonder whether there's any of AM 16 in current 18?

Interesting about the new ground AM got to being inland; any chance the new ground was closer to the sea? I could see in the days of the featherie and topped shots the inland holes coming first, the cliffside holes coming with the Haskell. Who knows, really...

According to the website, work is underway on the course now -- were you aware of this?

Mark

Mark

I must admit that #5 does feel like an older hole.  I can't imagine Dr Mac or Mac Ross building a par 4 so close to a road that they would have known had to take cars in the future.  The one aspect of #18 which makes me wonder is the blindness.  Would Dr Mac leave that hole blind off the tee or would he have found a way to make the landing zone visible - especially as the leg turns at the landing zone? 

The small sliver of land which Dr Mac was meant to have is close to the sea on both sides, but you don't get the feeling it is.  The top of this area near the boys school does seem like the obvious place to start and finish, except for the hotel aspect of the project.  The siting of this hotel makes sense right where it is and thus the start and finish of the course. 

Yes, I knew that the new owners of the "resort" wanted to upgrade the course.  Many more bunkers and added length plus a fancy 4/5 star hotel.  I think the project has been scaled back somewhat and I am not sure what is going.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Sean_A

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Re: A Mackenzie's Castletown Golf Links (1914)
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2008, 04:00:28 AM »
I am still interested in what happened at Castletown and what of Dr Mac remains.  I just had a wierd schock when I compared today's layout to Kroeger's 1995 layout.  The numbering is very different. 

1 the same as now
2 the same as now
3 the same as now
4 was #7
5 was #8
6 was #9
7 was #10
8 was #11
9 was #12
10 was #13
11 was #14
12 was #5
13 was #6
14 was #4
The finishing holes are the same

Hence the OTM holes would now be 1, 4 & 5 and they all seem like very old fashioned holes with #s1 & 5 especially so.  All are good holes, but #4 is a cracker.

I am still guessing that Dr Mac would have been the one to expand the course over a wee road and closer to the school - what are now #s 10-12. 

I believe the course alterations have been scaled down to significant bunker work.  I wonder if it was considered to extend greens out to bunkers which were probably greenside bunkers at one time.

Does anybody have a map of the course as it looked after Dr Mac or Mac Ross was there?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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