[Kalen Braley]

Rules are rules?  This is complete and utter baloney in my opinion.

She walked away from the tent without signing and she gets DQ'd?  This is as assinine and anal as it gets?

Whats next a DQ for someone who looks at the guys behind the scorers table with a funny face?  Or perhaps DQ for sitting at the scorers table with your legs crossed?

What a complete and utter joke to have a "rule" like this.

[JESII]

Kalen,

Why have them sign score cards at all, huh?

[Kalen Braley]

Jes,

With todays technology and everyone double and triple checking, I'd agree very good point.

Why even sign scorecards as well.

[JESII]

Why even keep them?

[J_ Crisham]

Jack, they had no clue she hadn't signed the card until her third round was underway. And, according to the transcript, they only found out by overhearing a volunteer tell someone something in the press tent. What if they didn't know until Sunday night and Wie had won?
Quite an outfit, this LPGA.

Tim, What is the statute of limitations on not signing a card? If she wins and they discover 2 weeks later an unsigned card what happens? Do you take back the trophy? What a joke. Jack

[Mark Bourgeois]

Why even keep them?

Cross-dependency for obsessive-compulsive behavior.

[Chip Gaskins]

Rules are rules?  This is complete and utter baloney in my opinion.

She walked away from the tent without signing and she gets DQ'd?  This is as assinine and anal as it gets?

Whats next a DQ for someone who looks at the guys behind the scorers table with a funny face?  Or perhaps DQ for sitting at the scorers table with your legs crossed?

What a complete and utter joke to have a "rule" like this.

Kalen-

I totally agree.  Talk about blue blazer, I know better than you, its a rule....just do it crap.  The whole "rules are rules" line to this nonsense.  

Is it a "rule", yes, is it a stupid black and white rule, yes.  Grey area folks, grey area....Mark Roe, Robert de Vincenzo, or Michelle Wie...they hit the ball a certain number of times...having some procedural bullshit rule, is well, procedural.

I am not a huge Wie fan...I think she has been very mishandled, but I also thing this type of "rule" is silly.

Chip

[J_ Crisham]

Kalen, I failed to sign my card at the KP and nobody gave a shit-of course I had Bob Huntley as my partner and who would question him?

[Kalen Braley]

Its lunacy

A person while playing the game, can realize an infraction they did several holes prior...it could even be that hours have expired.  But if they correct it and sign for it correctly, all is right in the world.

Yet a person steps one foot out of the tent for a split second while having a microsecond lapse and they are DQ'd???  And to boot the round is done, the clubs are tucked away, everyone is piling in thier car to head off to Dennys, and then this? For Pete's sake they aren't even playing golf anymore...where is the huge crime being committed? Where in the world is the logic to any of this?

Lame, very very lame.

[Craig Sweet]

Once again,,,,SHE DID SIGN THE CARD!!!!  However, the LPGA did not know until mid day today that she signed it after leaving the scoring area.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen, I failed to sign my card at the KP and nobody gave a shit-of course I had Bob Huntley as my partner and who would question him?

As always Jack, its not what you shoot, its who's keeping track of the score.  If Bob says I shot a 110, then by golly, I've shot a 110. 

[Kalen Braley]

Once again,,,,SHE DID SIGN THE CARD!!!!  However, the LPGA did not know until mid day today that she signed it after leaving the scoring area.

Amen Craig,

She indeed signed the card, and was still DQ'd.

I'm thinking things like not counting shots correctly, not taking penalty strokes, hitting your partner over the head with your putter, are all pretty good offenses for being DQ'd.  I can go along with this

But drawing a literal line in the sand and saying in my best Lord of the Rings Gandalf the Grey voice "Thous shalt not pass..... until you've signed the card?"  What the hell is that?

[J_ Crisham]

Once again,,,,SHE DID SIGN THE CARD!!!!  However, the LPGA did not know until mid day today that she signed it after leaving the scoring area.
[/
quote]  Craig, Again my question is what is the statute of limitations. My feeling is that if she has hit a shot in her next round the past should be the past. Where are all of our GCA lawyers when we need them? Kind of like the NFL rushing to get a play off before the opposing team throws the red flag on the field! Jack

[Ryan Farrow]

Once again,,,,SHE DID SIGN THE CARD!!!!  However, the LPGA did not know until mid day today that she signed it after leaving the scoring area.

Amen Craig,

She indeed signed the card, and was still DQ'd.

I'm thinking things like not counting shots correctly, not taking penalty strokes, hitting your partner over the head with your putter, are all pretty good offenses for being DQ'd.  I can go along with this

But drawing a literal line in the sand and saying in my best Lord of the Rings Gandalf the Grey voice "Thous shalt not pass..... until you've signed the card?"  What the hell is that?

Kalen, thanks for the laugh.

[Kalen Braley]

Once again,,,,SHE DID SIGN THE CARD!!!!  However, the LPGA did not know until mid day today that she signed it after leaving the scoring area.

Amen Craig,

She indeed signed the card, and was still DQ'd.

I'm thinking things like not counting shots correctly, not taking penalty strokes, hitting your partner over the head with your putter, are all pretty good offenses for being DQ'd.  I can go along with this

But drawing a literal line in the sand and saying in my best Lord of the Rings Gandalf the Grey voice "Thous shalt not pass..... until you've signed the card?"  What the hell is that?

Kalen, thanks for the laugh.

I'm with you Ryan,

This whole thing is a laugher indeed.....

[Tim_Cronin]

Jack, they had no clue she hadn't signed the card before first leaving their defined area and either coming back in, or signing the card outside it (not that it matters, apparently), until her third round was underway. And, according to the transcript, they only found out by overhearing a volunteer tell someone something in the press tent. What if they didn't know until Sunday night and Wie had won?
Quite an outfit, this LPGA.

Tim, What is the statute of limitations on not signing a card? If she wins and they discover 2 weeks later an unsigned card what happens? Do you take back the trophy? What a joke. Jack

Jack,
   According to the USGA's book, "How to Conduct a Competition," at a certain point, a competition is closed. In fact, I've covered a bunch of tournaments where someone will announce just that. And I've used the phrase as well.
   So to the Decisions book we go. USGA/R&A Decision 34-1b/2 covers this:
   Q. Shortly after a stroke-play competition had closed, it was discovered that the score card of the winner had not been signed by him. Should the Committee take any action?
   A. The Committee must decide whether the competitor knew, before the competition closed, that he was in breach of the Rules by failing to sign his scorecard (Rule 6-6b). If he knew, he is disqualified. Otherwise, as provided in Rule 34-1b, no penalty may be imposed and the result of the competition must stand.
   ---
   Let's call when the trophy is awarded on Sunday the point when the competition is closed. Say on Monday, a tournament volunteer pulls winner Wie's four scorecards so Panther Creek can have them framed (much as Nicklaus' four scorecards from the 1968 Western Open are framed and on display in the 73rd Hole grill at Olympia Fields). Then the missing signature is discovered, so to speak. What, then, does the LPGA do?
    I don't know that answer. I do know that too many years ago to remember the specifics, the results of a PGA Tour tourney were changed on, I think, a Tuesday, when either an incorrect scorecard (signed) or something else was discovered. I believe the player, who had finished third or thereabouts, voluntarily withdrew, so everyone under him could get their fair share of the purse. There you have the spirit of the game, the player using the rule of equity, coming into play.
    Given that the LPGA doesn't count money winnings from the U.S. Women's Open as official, I have no idea what would happen if Wie was in the same spot, whether or not a winner, and volunteered same.

[Tim_Cronin]

Jack, they had no clue she hadn't signed the card before first leaving their defined area and either coming back in, or signing the card outside it (not that it matters, apparently), until her third round was underway. And, according to the transcript, they only found out by overhearing a volunteer tell someone something in the press tent. What if they didn't know until Sunday night and Wie had won?
Quite an outfit, this LPGA.

Tim, What is the statute of limitations on not signing a card? If she wins and they discover 2 weeks later an unsigned card what happens? Do you take back the trophy? What a joke. Jack

Jack,
   According to the USGA's book, "How to Conduct a Competition," at a certain point, a competition is closed. In fact, I've covered a bunch of tournaments where someone will announce just that. And I've used the phrase as well.
   So to the Decisions book we go. USGA/R&A Decision 34-1b/2 covers this:
   Q. Shortly after a stroke-play competition had closed, it was discovered that the score card of the winner had not been signed by him. Should the Committee take any action?
   A. The Committee must decide whether the competitor knew, before the competition closed, that he was in breach of the Rules by failing to sign his scorecard (Rule 6-6b). If he knew, he is disqualified. Otherwise, as provided in Rule 34-1b, no penalty may be imposed and the result of the competition must stand.
   ---
   Let's call when the trophy is awarded on Sunday the point when the competition is closed. Say on Monday, a tournament volunteer pulls winner Wie's four scorecards so Panther Creek can have them framed (much as Nicklaus' four scorecards from the 1968 Western Open are framed and on display in the 73rd Hole grill at Olympia Fields). Then the missing signature (if it actually hadn't been signed) is discovered, so to speak. Or it's not until then that the volunteer's story about Wie's exiting the defined scoring area is told or printed in the paper. In either case, what, then, does the LPGA do?
    I don't know that answer. I do know that too many years ago to remember the specifics, the results of a PGA Tour tourney were changed on, I think, a Tuesday, when either an incorrect scorecard (signed) or something else was discovered. I believe the player, who had finished third or thereabouts, voluntarily withdrew, so everyone under him could get their fair share of the purse. There you have the spirit of the game, the player using the rule of equity, coming into play.
    Given that the LPGA doesn't count money winnings from the U.S. Women's Open as official, I have no idea what would happen if Wie was in the same spot, whether or not a winner, and volunteered same.

   Here's the modified version of the first answer, which should have been on the earlier post had I known which thing I was clicking? (At least I signed my card....)

[JohnV]

Jes,

With todays technology and everyone double and triple checking, I'd agree very good point.

Why even sign scorecards as well.

Kalen,  What technology are you referring to?  Would you rather have the player's entire score dependent on a volunteer with about 1 hours training punching in scores on a PDA?

If anyone remembers the complaining that went on about a month ago about the USGA's website not having the correct scores for the US Open had better not argue that side of the point.

Baseball, football, basketball and hockey (to name a few) all take place in one place in front of a single scorer who can be well trained on how to score.  Golf has 50 or so groups walking around the course and if it is a big enough event, they might have a walking scorer with them to keep a semblance of the players score, but the only one who really knows is the player and (hopefully) her marker.  At the end of the round all they have to do is make sure that there are 18 hole-by-hole scores and 2 signatures.  That isn't really that hard is it?

Perhaps in today's nanny-state ethos we should take that responsibility away from there also.

I had 112 kids play 36 holes the last two days.  All of them remembered to sign the card they kept and their own.  Why can't poor darling Michelle be expected to do the same thing?

That being said, I wish that the tour would put staff members in the scoring tents instead of relying on volunteers.  Volunteers (and even staff members) make mistakes and miss things occasionally.  But, if a staff member was there, this would have been handled properly on Friday rather than waiting for today.

To answer the person who asked what would happen if it wasn't discovered until Sunday night, once the competition was closed, she would have been off the hook unless it could be proven that she knew, before the competition was closed, that what she had done was against the rules.

This has happened quite a few times in the past.  Padraig Harrington was DQ'ed during the final round for failing to sign his card on Friday while in the lead.  Lee Trevino DQ'ed himself for not signing a card when someone asked him to autograph a copy of the card and he noticed he had failed to sign it.  Quite a few of the DQ's on tour are due to unsigned cards.  It usually happens because the player is PO'ed and just throws it at the official.

[J_ Crisham]

Tim , Thanks for doing the research-I can tellyou are a details man. This makes me happy knowing you are writing a very special book on Beverly! Just remember to change the names of the caddies who were rather spunky back in the day!    Thanks, Jack

[Kalen Braley]

JVB,

The techonology is there with computers and such...but the data is only as good as is inputted.  With the size of the purses these days on the professional tours, would think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to hire someone to take on a task like this. In the end though, I was obviously being sarcastic with Jesse. 

However, I'm not seeing any logical reason as to why MW gets a DQ in this case?  You have tons of tournament experience, perhaps you have some insight on why a rule like this exists in the 1st place and more so why it should deserve a DQ if broken.

[J_ Crisham]

Jes,

.
[John , I was the one who asked the question regarding the duration of culpability. I do have to ask  you -Is your judgement biased when you stated the "poor darling"? I must preface this by saying I do not care for her as a fan-I am looking at this as strictly an issue of intent. I aslo felt Rowe got screwed in the Open a few years ago. I don't expect you to agree with me. I recognize that you are rules official and I am neither an official nor a very competitive golfer. I am just trying to incur common sense into this mess. Jack

.

[Jeff Shelman]

The problem with this is there is plenty of blame to go around.

Michelle accepted the mistake as hers as she didn't sign the card. That is true, but....

The caddie deserves some blame in this as well for not being on top of this.

And the LPGA deserves some blame as well. If they are going to be firm on no-signing-once-you-leave-the-tent, then they need to have a staff person in there. Got bless volunteers, but I can only imagine that some lady who shoots 115 at Illini Country Club was in charge of scoring. There's too much cash involved in this to do that.

I don't know the answer to this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the AJGA doesn't leave scoring to volunteers.

[Richard Choi]

John, I don't think it would be too much to ask a scorer to keep a score and have 18 scorers at each hole keep scores as well (by getting players informing the scorer), so that you have multiple sources.

If there are any disputes, you can consult the players to figure it out.

It requires mere 18 additional voluteers and it is no more/less complicated than what the players are doing today.

This is not rocket science.

There is absolutely no reason to force players to keep their own scores in pro events. It is only some idiotic devotion to "romantic" ideals.

Golf needs to get on with th 21st century.

[Tim Gavrich]

JVB,

The techonology is there with computers and such...but the data is only as good as is inputted.  With the size of the purses these days on the professional tours, would think it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to hire someone to take on a task like this. In the end though, I was obviously being sarcastic with Jesse. 

However, I'm not seeing any logical reason as to why MW gets a DQ in this case?  You have tons of tournament experience, perhaps you have some insight on why a rule like this exists in the 1st place and more so why it should deserve a DQ if broken.

Kalen--

Not all competitive golfers play in tournaments whose organizers have the resources to do what's done to track players' scores.  Therefore, do we say that once a player has earned the ability to play in a high-profile tournament, he/she need not be accountable for his/her own score because someone else is doing it?  Heck, the incompetency of the guy in MW's scoring tent doesn't exactly inspire confidence that third parties will do a better job of scorekeeping and accounting than the players themselves.

~~~

At my university, exams are all unproctored, and some are take-home (i.e. you can do them in your dorm room, with a closed textbook for the course whose exam you're taking in your bookshelf). When you finish an exam (or any other assignment, for that matter), you must pledge your work as follows: "On my honor, I have received no unacknowledged aid on this assignment." If you are found to have cheated or plagiarized on any assignment, you are dismissed from the university. If you fail to or forget to pledge something, you may evoke suspicion from a professor.

Now, I'm not saying this in order to suggest that Michelle Wie cheated or is dishonorable. The above anecdote is more about the signatures on scorecards than Wie's latest gaffe.

By signing your scorecard, you are tying your just-played round of golf to a main tenet of the game of golf--integrity and honor. If you no longer require players to sign their scorecards in competition, you lose all basis for holding them accountable for their round. And that would be the biggest blow imaginable to the history, nature, and ethos of the game.

There are reasons why some of these rules are in place. Michelle Wie broke the rule and owned up to it. I'm not a Wie fan, but I find how she's handled this VERY honorable. Good on her; those who are trying to excuse her should ruminate on the implications of what they're suggesting.

[Craig Sweet]

She was NOT DQ'd for FAILING TO SIGN THE CARD!!!!!

She was DQ'd for going outside the scorers tent...coming back into the tent, and THEN SIGNING the card....

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