[Evan_Green]

What are the 5 most difficult courses for::

1) A scratch Hcp. (to play par golf) - playing the back tees

2) An 18 Hcp. (to play bogey golf) - playing the proper (2nd/3rd) set of tees

ASSUMING:
- Typical conditions
     - 2 inch rough
     - 9-10 stimp greens
     - Everyday level pin difficulties
     - etc...

And Why?

[cary lichtenstein]

Oakmont is without pier when it comes to difficult courses

[Matt_Cohn]

I've played neither course, but just for an obvious comparison, you don't think an 18 marker would shoot higher at TPC Sawgrass than Oakmont under comparable conditions?

[Phil_the_Author]

As I am about to leave on a research visit and won't be back for a week, I definitely can't resist...

Bethpage Black, of course... 

[Dan Herrmann]

Pine Valley

[Andy Troeger]

The hardest courses I've played would have to include:

Promontory Ranch--Painted Valley
Butler National
Desert Forest
Wolf Run
Whistling Straits
Conservatory at Hammock Beach
Kampen at Purdue
TPC Sawgrass

There many others I haven't seen. I don't think there's any way to answer the questions about the scratch or 18 hcp. Not all of them play anywhere near the same game. A friend and I are fairly competitive, but he is short and straight and a good putter whereas I hit it all over the yard and hope it works. Our matches tend to be very different depending on where we play.

[Tom_Doak]

This is really an impossible question to answer because players have different strengths and hardest for me (a 10 handicap) would be different than hardest for another 10 handicap with different skills.

I think Oakmont could make both lists.

For a scratch player, I would nominate Crystal Downs as one of the hardest.  It's only 6500 yards but the combination of normal windy conditions and tough greens and difficult native rough makes position play imperative.  They play 12,000 rounds a year up here and typically there are only one or two rounds reported at par or better, other than the host professional.  In fact, I've played with four Tour pros here and none of them broke par, either, although I'm sure they would on a calm day.

[Tom Huckaby]

The answer is simple.

Hardest for scratch from back tees - find the course with the highest course rating from those tees.

Hardest course for bogey from regular tees - find the course with highest bogey rating from those tees.

Now how to find those, I don't know.  But I bet an astute internet searcher with a few minutes on his hands could find this.

TH

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

From my experience....for scratch players
Merion
Bethpage Black
Oakmont
Pine Valley

[Steve Kline]

I've played Pinehurst #2 several hundred times from various tees and have shot par exactly once. I've never broken it. I've only played PV twice and I shot 78, 74 (including doubles on both par 5s). I could be wrong but I think if I played it a couple of hundred times I would shoot more than par once at PV.

[Chip Gaskins]

I agree with Steve about PV.  Its certainly not easy, but I think scoring is much harder at #2, Bethpage, Oakmont, etc

[Dan_Callahan]

I've never played there, but from what friends have said Carnoustie is about as hard as it gets for a low-handicap golfer. The wind, length and impossible rough make it a nightmare for scoring.

[Jim Nugent]

For a scratch player, I would nominate Crystal Downs as one of the hardest.  It's only 6500 yards but the combination of normal windy conditions and tough greens and difficult native rough makes position play imperative.  They play 12,000 rounds a year up here and typically there are only one or two rounds reported at par or better, other than the host professional.  In fact, I've played with four Tour pros here and none of them broke par, either, although I'm sure they would on a calm day.

Tom, suppose (!) they held the U.S. Open at Crystal Downs.  What do you think the winning score would be?  Course as is, no Rees, the USGA does not go berserk with rough. 

[tlavin]

The answer would surely be found in this list from Golf Digest.

http://www.golfdigest.com/rankings/courses/toughest/2007/gd50toughestcourses

[Mark Manuel]

I played the Ocean Course with a caddy who had been there for three years.  When I asked him how many people he had seen break 80 he held up five fingers.  You have to make the leap that there were at least a few scratches in there.

Tobacco Road is a course that I would think is the easiest for a scratch and the hardest for an 18.  The three guys I played with were all under 5 index and all shot under 76 from the tips.  Not at all a hard place for guys who can play.  But, anyone who can't is in for a very very long day.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

It's the fear factor which makes a course harder for an 18 handicapper - put a wall of gorse bushes down each side and he will inevitably tighten up and plonk the ball straight in. Give him a water carry not  huge one, even) and again he will plonk it in there.

From my 15-handicap perspective I think the toughest course I play (only occasionally) is Royal Lytham. Interestingly, despite the several short par fours and and hardly over-long par 5s, the pros don't seem to burn it up.

Peter Alliss wrote that he thought Aldeburgh was possibly the hardest course in England on which to play to your handicap.

[Jon Spaulding]

Crystal Downs and Oakland Hills. The former for reasons already mentioned......and the latter due to green slopes/speed, length, and wall to wall bunkering in the LZ as well as at the greens.

[Tommy Williamsen]

For the 18 handicap Royal Coumty Down is without peer.  I doubt they could break 110.

For the scratch player (I am a four) it is more difficult to figure out.  I think it depends on the the strengths and weaknesses of the the player. I hit the ball pretty straight and have a good short game. The first time I played Pine Valley I shot 78.  I played Baltusrol two weeks before they held the PGA a couple of years ago and didn't break 90.  I figured par for me was about 82.  I may be straight but can barely hit out of my shadow anymore.

[Tim Leahy]

The answer is simple.
Hardest for scratch from back tees - find the course with the highest course rating from those tees.
Hardest course for bogey from regular tees - find the course with highest bogey rating from those tees.
Now how to find those, I don't know.  But I bet an astute internet searcher with a few minutes on his hands could find this.
TH

Here's a vote for one of Tom's favorite courses as hardest for 18 hdcp, The Ranch near San Jose, Ca., target golf with huge changes in elevation and lost ball penalties for every bad shot.
I also would nominate Ko'olau in Hawaii as hardest I have played. Visually intimidating and lost ball penalties for every bad shot.
For low handicaps, the Stadium Course at PGA West from the back tees. Just look at the Q School scores on that course.
Also Industry Hills in Los Angeles from the back tees is brutal even for low hndcps.
With the wind up, which is the case most often, Wente golf course near Livermore, Ca is brutal and had the highest scores on the Nationwide Tour a few years ago.

[David Stamm]

Spyglass Hill comes to mind. I find I hear from all levels of golfers how difficult they find the course, no matter what tees they play from.

[Steve Kline]

I played Spyglass last year for my one and only time. I played from the tips. On the third or fourth tee my caddy says (to everyone in the group) that the other caddy bet me lunch that I wouldn't break 80 from the tips. The other caddy was very embarrased by this. On #7 I hit it in the water going for the green in two but still made par (I also got plunked in the arm by a playing partner's skull/shank of an attempted flop shot from the runoff area left of that green). On #9 I had 200 to a back left pin. I asked the caddy if I should aim at a tree behind the green and draw it to the flag with a 3 iron. He said that would be perfect. As my ball was halfway to the hole I turned to him and said "Kinda like that?" When the ball stopped rolling a foot from the hole, my caddy yelled across the fairway to the other caddy that he better get a half time adjustment on that bet. I ended up shooting 2 under for the day. All of the course staff said that was the best round on the course since the PGA tour event five months earlier.

So, Spyglass is really pretty easy. 

In all seriousness I had one of the best ball striking rounds of my life as I was hitting a lot of mid and long irons to greens.

[John_Conley]

The hardest courses I've played would have to include:

Promontory Ranch--Painted Valley
Butler National
Desert Forest
Wolf Run
Whistling Straits
Conservatory at Hammock Beach
Kampen at Purdue
TPC Sawgrass

Andy, if you think Conservatory is hard, go next door and play the Creek Course at Hammock Dunes!  Long forced carries.

[Dennis_Harwood]

What are the 5 most difficult courses for::

1) A scratch Hcp. (to play par golf) - playing the back tees

2) An 18 Hcp. (to play bogey golf) - playing the proper (2nd/3rd) set of tees

ASSUMING:
- Typical conditions
     - 2 inch rough
     - 9-10 stimp greens
     - Everyday level pin difficulties
     - etc...

And Why?

That should be easy to determine (I just don't have the time to do it)--

That is exactly what the USGA course rating does--

The "course rating number" is measurment of difficulty for the scratch golfer (defined as the average player making the US Am field)-- The highest 5 Course Rating numbers in the US would reflect the 5 most difficult courses in the US for scratch golfers (at least under the USGA Rating system)--

The "Slope" number is the relative difficulty of that course for an 18 handicap vs a scratch golfer (the higher the slope the MORE relative difficulty that course will be vs a scratch-- specifically the "spread" between what a scratch will shoot vs an 18)-- Therefore the 5 highest rated slope numbers in the US at the tees you designated will be, under that system, the most difficult courses for an 18 handicap vs what a scratch golfer is expected to shoot.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dennis - great minds - see my post above.

My only difference is that as I am certain you know, in the course rating process we also do a "bogey rating"  - which is pure difficulty for the bogey player - and those are obtainable as well.  Bogey rating would give what he wants for 2) very clearly.

TH

[michael j fay]

Oakmont, Carnoustie, RCD, Winged Foot West, Pinehurst #2.

On the more esoteric side: The Island Course, Cascades, Rye and Royal Porthcawl.

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