What courses have gone green - installing solar/wind energy

[Mike Benham]

Ryan and Tommy -

Thanks for proving my point,

Perhaps the technology will allow for theoretical ROI to be 2-years but until you can MASS PRODUCE the equipment, it is a dream, much like the word POTENTIAL when attached to the Gigantes farm system.

Unfortunately, the real world economics of supply and demand will dictate the price of the equipment and ultimately, the ROI.

Mike

[Dan Herrmann]

Can wind replace a diesel-powered H2O well pump?

[SPDB]

Portsmouth Abbey School in Rhode Island has a huge wind turbine on grounds.  Carnegie-Abbey is adjacent.  Not sure if they share the electricity.

I'm an alumnus. I don't believe Carnegie Abbey shares in electricity from the turbine as it currently only supplies somewhere on the order of 40-50% of the School's electrical energy use. Clearly, however, Carnegie Abbey  sees indiret benefits, i.e. reduced load on the local utility feeder and higher voltage/quality during peak periods.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I tried to go solar once.
The payback is far more than 8-10 years in some circumstances.
More like 20 years.
And you still need to be on the grid.
I will try every project.
Cheers

Mike, haven't the times changed? If you know from experience that it takes plus 8-10 years for a return on your investment then that technology is old and inefficient. Since you are a rocket scientist you should know that photovoltaics have gone a long way since then and can be produced for dirt cheap and literally pasted on anything, anywhere. They just need mass produced.

And with an administration who doesn't care about energy independence and only cares about helping out his oil buddies and war profiteers we have really screwed ourselves over right about now.

Ryan,
Mike is a golf course architect with a degree in aerospace engineering and experience in the aerospace industry. He has worked with solar energy and while he's too classy to respond to your swipe, I know you’re out of your league debating solar energy with him.

The project he speaks of is the one we are doing right now. Mike did an exhaustive study for the purpose of using solar energy to power the entire project and eventually sell power to the grid. But, neither the solar manufacturing industry nor the local co-op was ready for what we wanted to do. I have no doubt in the near future that will change, but as of two years ago, it did not make economic sense. Remember, we’re not just talking about powering carts or buildings; he took it all the way to powering 3 phase 480 volt 180hp pumps and wells. I can assure you that the failure of our present project going solar had nothing to do with Mike lacking the knowledge to make it happen.

[Bob_Huntley]

I hate looking at Wind Turbines. Why?  Back in 1983 the State of California were giving unbelievable tax incentives to investors who bought the bloody things, that together with more relief from the Feds lured me into buying one for $75,000.00 from the Arbutus Corporation. I think the turbines were made in Norway or Sweden.

We were then advised we would be getting payments of about six cents per KWH. After a year or so, Southern California claimed that the avoided cost calculation by Arbutus was wrong and the real figure was two cents per KWH. Legal proceedings began, SCE won and wanted their money back. Rather than appealing I ceded my ownership of the Turbine to SCE. If anyone drives by the Tehachapi wind farm you can see a host of turbines, mostly owned by SCE and obtained on the cheap.

Apart from the painful screwing by the utility, the IRS then demanded a check to recapture the deductions from earlier years taxes.

Driving down I10 and into Palm Springs to the Kings Putter a couple of years ago, brought everything back in living color. Seeing a host of blades whirling about made me feel quite sick.


Bob

[Doug Siebert]

Can wind replace a diesel-powered H2O well pump?

Sure, when the wind is blowing it can pump water to fill a water tower (or water storage tank concealed in a hill, if you don't like the look of a water tower occupying the highest part of the course)  Then you don't need the wind to be blowing when you want to use the water.  Same principle as the many many cities that do this so that they don't lose water pressure when the power goes out.

[Ryan Farrow]

Don, I didn't mean to offend you or Mike, perhaps an emotion icon would have helped but I was joking around as far as that first comment goes.

Of course I don't know what the exact cirumstances of your project was and if it was a 20 year return, then I could see why it would be a hard sell. But there are certainly many instances where people are getting payed back after 2-3, and this is not just for solar panels but windows, insulation, and other energy savers.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ryan,
We are doing what you mention re windows, insulation, 2-speed HVAC units...etc.  All those things do make sense as the savings offsets the investment in a reasonable amount of time.

If I remember correctly, and Mike may need to set me straight here, one of the big issues with supplying the entire golf course with solar energy was the cost and reliability of the storage batteries needed to operate the wells and pump station. Right now, the problem is between golf irrigation components like large pumps and the solar components needed to power them. I don't think the golf irrigation companies have designed a pump station that can be powered by solar without huge investment and extended payback. It doesn't make economic sense right now and until it does I doubt we'll see many totally solar golf courses

[Mike Nuzzo]

Don,
The battery option was if we went off grid - so we could store what we captured.  That was a little bit of whimsey from when someone was tired of dealing with our local electic collective.

What gets the roi point into the 10 year range in some instances is gov't subsidies / or rebates from an aggressive city.  It would have been more cost effective if we were in Austin.

The other snag was the lead times with the cells - it was longer than our construction schedule - and was getting longer last I checked - demand is increasing - not sure about the supply - only a few manufacturers.

I had found a similar size facility in another industry that would work well - there are very few of them of that size.

Ryan,
The solar panels on a satellite are big, but these would be much bigger. 

[Pat Brockwell]

Turf is solar powered, and consumes CO2.

[Lou_Duran]

Pat B,

But what happens when you mow it?

Bob H,

My condolences on your investment.  Not to commiserate, but I lost some property via eminent domain to a developer of wind power some years ago.  I got a pittance as the property did not have a high alternative value at that time, but I was not contemplating a sale.  I haven't seen the developed property, but I hear the neighbors and the livestock aren't pleased.  What it has done to current and future values of the land around it is probably difficult to assess, but it can't be good.

Those wind farms enroute to Palm Springs sure are an eyesore.  One need not wonder why the Kennedy clan fought the proposed wind power development off the coast from their Martha's Vineyard compound so fiercely.  I wouldn't want them in my backyard either.

Mike B,

A force large enough to compel can game the so-called "real world economics of supply and demand".  The various carbon credit "market" schemes being conncocted are designed to generate revenues/taxes in the trillions of dollars.  After government and the various middlemen take their cuts, the remainder is to be used to subsidize the technologies that do not make sense on their own merits ("real world economics of supply and demand").  Some people in the public and private sectors will benefit hugely from all this.  Will the "public good" fare as well?  We shall see.     

[Ryan Farrow]

Pat B,

But what happens when you mow it?

Bob H,

My condolences on your investment.  Not to commiserate, but I lost some property via eminent domain to a developer of wind power some years ago.  I got a pittance as the property did not have a high alternative value at that time, but I was not contemplating a sale.  I haven't seen the developed property, but I hear the neighbors and the livestock aren't pleased.  What it has done to current and future values of the land around it is probably difficult to assess, but it can't be good.

Those wind farms enroute to Palm Springs sure are an eyesore.  One need not wonder why the Kennedy clan fought the proposed wind power development off the coast from their Martha's Vineyard compound so fiercely.  I wouldn't want them in my backyard either.

Mike B,

A force large enough to compel can game the so-called "real world economics of supply and demand".  The various carbon credit "market" schemes being conncocted are designed to generate revenues/taxes in the trillions of dollars.  After government and the various middlemen take their cuts, the remainder is to be used to subsidize the technologies that do not make sense on their own merits ("real world economics of supply and demand") .  Some people in the public and private sectors will benefit hugely from all this.  Will the "public good" fare as well?  We shall see.     

Lou if your talking about "green technologies" and alternative enegy, is part of their problem of supply and demand cause by not competing on a level playing field? Coal, natural gas, and oil are all heavily susidiszed and on top of that, they are bought and sold on an artifical "price" and not the true "cost" which disregards any environmental damage and impact on human health from their polluting. The problems these industries cause are ultimately payed for by the tax-payer, not the energy companies.

[Jim Nugent]

 The various carbon credit "market" schemes being conncocted are designed to generate revenues/taxes in the trillions of dollars.  After government and the various middlemen take their cuts, the remainder is to be used to subsidize the technologies that do not make sense on their own merits ("real world economics of supply and demand").  Some people in the public and private sectors will benefit hugely from all this.  Will the "public good" fare as well?  We shall see.     

We shall see, and I predict the public good will not fare as well.  The information base the carbon-credit boys are working from is too small.  Another ethanol/Enron scandal in the making, I bet.     

[Steve Lang]

[

Lou if your talking about "green technologies" and alternative enegy, is part of their problem of supply and demand cause by not competing on a level playing field? Coal, natural gas, and oil are all heavily susidiszed and on top of that, they are bought and sold on an artifical "price" and not the true "cost" which disregards any environmental damage and impact on human health from their polluting. The problems these industries cause are ultimately payed for by the tax-payer, not the energy companies.
[/quote]

Whooooaaaaaa PARDNER..  I'm all for green tech, but fossil fuel heavily subsidized and ... artificial price vs "true cost including damages"? 

That's quite a sweeping conspiracy theory generalization.  Any references to the proof of that?

give me a good kilowatt or 1.341022 horsepower of power from a source with the highest energy density anyday.. you can have that diffuse stuff all you want

[Ryan Farrow]

Steve, my friend. For example, Germany pays 6.7 Billion, or $73,000 per worker, every year to subsidize the Ruhr Valley Coal Regions. Which, in turn pollutes the hell out of Germany, and kills its forests.


Not to mention U.S Forces, which get this, our tax payers fund, are used to protect our oil interest in the Persian gulf. Is that not a form of subsidization?

And I'm not sure where this price stands today, but in the 90's when gas was about a buck a gallon we spent 20 BILLION in subsidies to fossil-fuel industries a year.

And shall we get into all of the abandoned mines that have polluted our rivers, that we have to pay to clean up?


Conspiracy?

[Joel_Stewart]

 Golf Magazine has an article about solar power at golf courses should you be interested.   In short, there are a few courses that have installed it and it's growing.

http://www.golfbusinessmagazine.com/

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Of course I don't know what the exact cirumstances of your project was and if it was a 20 year return, then I could see why it would be a hard sell.

At what return year would it no longer be a hard sell ?

But there are certainly many instances where people are getting payed back after 2-3, and this is not just for solar panels but windows, insulation, and other energy savers.

Ryan, could you cite the many instances where people are getting payed back after 2-3 years ?

Capital/Investors seek efficiency in ROI.
If "green" was as efficient in ROI as you profess, clubs would be flocking to convert, especially with ROI in just 2-3 years.

Could you cite where ROI on golf club/course related system introductions has produced ROI in just 2-3 years ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

And with an administration who doesn't care about energy independence


You have to be either:
obtuse,
biased,
politicized
stupid
all of the above

To make that statement.

and only cares about helping out his oil buddies


Could you identify his oil buddies you claimed are being helped out ?
Is Hugo Chavez one of them ?
Could you also tell us exactly how they were "helped out" ?

and war profiteers


Could you identify the "war profiteers" ?

Can you tell us, specifically, how they profited and to what degree ?

we have really screwed ourselves over right about now.

How so ?
Citizens and municipalities have fought to keep Nuclear, Solar and Wind plants out of their back yards.   Why do you choose to divert blame to the Bush Administration ?

[Tony Ristola]

At a course I'd done in Germany the first hole plays from the clubhouse towards a cluster of old oaks and forest; a 100 plus year old farm house nearby.

One spring I visited and the hill a few hundred yards away, a hill formerly obscured by the oaks, sprouted a massive wind turbine. God awful.

I understand these things don't generate much electricity and are highly subsidized.
They make sense in places like Galicia, but in some pastoral German village? Ugh.

Shell has pulled out of wind and solar; no money.

I think the fastest way to go green is to water and fertilize less; which means leaner turf and less mowing.

.

[Joe Hancock]

I think the fastest way to go green is to water and fertilize less; which means leaner turf and less mowing.

Thank you. Anybody listening?

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony & Joe,

Paterson, New Jersey was a major textile center in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The Passaic river had canals and channels built into it such that the river was diverted to a degree and that water could be used to generate electricity and power many of the plant/mill functions.

Why wouldn't those principles work today ?

I understand the voluminous regulations that gover waterways big enough to float a popsicle stick, but, if the government is serious about developing alternate energy sources, why not use one that's been used successfully for centuries ?

Local, regional, state and Federal DEP regs would have to be amended, but, if a club had a significant waterway traversing the property, why not use its power to produce energy for that club ?

Is that not a highly efficient, low profile method for generating energy ?   

[Joe Hancock]

Tony & Joe,

Paterson, New Jersey was a major textile center in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The Passaic river had canals and channels built into it such that the river was diverted to a degree and that water could be used to generate electricity and power many of the plant/mill functions.

Why wouldn't those principles work today ?

I understand the voluminous regulations that gover waterways big enough to float a popsicle stick, but, if the government is serious about developing alternate energy sources, why not use one that's been used successfully for centuries ?

Local, regional, state and Federal DEP regs would have to be amended, but, if a club had a significant waterway traversing the property, why not use its power to produce energy for that club ?

Is that not a highly efficient, low profile method for generating energy ?   

Pat,

I think that's an interesting notion, and if a golf course could get permits to implement such an energy producing plant, I wonder how many kilowatts could be generated? I would assume that would depend on the flow and velocity of the waterway, and also on it's seasonal flow variations.

Joe

[Tony Ristola]

Tony & Joe,

Paterson, New Jersey was a major textile center in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The Passaic river had canals and channels built into it such that the river was diverted to a degree and that water could be used to generate electricity and power many of the plant/mill functions.

Why wouldn't those principles work today ?

I understand the voluminous regulations that gover waterways big enough to float a popsicle stick, but, if the government is serious about developing alternate energy sources, why not use one that's been used successfully for centuries ?

Local, regional, state and Federal DEP regs would have to be amended, but, if a club had a significant waterway traversing the property, why not use its power to produce energy for that club ?

Is that not a highly efficient, low profile method for generating energy ?   

Sounds like a viable option for those areas, and why not?

.

[Rich Goodale]

Pat

You are talking about "low head hydro," which involves trying to get energy from water courses which do not benefit from enough gravity to generate much motive power.  When I was doing alternative energy feasibility studies for the government 30+ years ago this was one of the technologies that was looked at, and for fun I just googled it to see what progress had been made over the past generation.  Nada.

As with GCA, if you ain't got gravity you ain't got nothing.

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich,

Gravity is easy to create.

You just dam the waterway, create the disparity in the level of the reservoir and outlet stream and off you go.

If that method functioned for centuries, why wouldn't it work today.

ANYONE who has looked behind the 17th tee at Pine Valley knows what I'm talking about.