TOO firm and fast? Pasatiempo specifically, any course in general...

[Jon Spaulding]

Mine is a decent example so feel free to use anytime. I fully agree with Doak's theorem; I've had 2-iron into #1 @ pasa for a tap in par...and against the fox had 9-iron in which yielded a bogey. Go figure.....but I had a hell of a time both rounds, which speaks volumes.

I've not seen anywhere that has altered it's MM so drastically as Pasa. They are pushing the envelope which puts our complaints about lack of F&F into practice....which in turn stimulates "beware what you ask for, it might come true" conversations such as this.

Most places in shallow California are so fearful of lack of color that they won't do the F&F thing.....so the answer to the question about other courses is no. I could speculate about a few other gems, but chances they would go the Pasa route are little or none.

[John Sheehan]

Tom H,
I can only think of one example of courses playing "too firm and fast" -- at least as it applies to the fairways -- and I'll get to that in a minute.  

The greens, as we've all seen at Pasa can be too fast without doubt.  A few years ago I played Pasa, and I seem to recall a term that I think you invented:  Perpetual Putting. Sheesh....

But the fairways are another story entirely.  Anyone who has watched an Open, or played those courses know that one day a par 5 might be a drive and a wedge, and the next day TWO drivers and some club other than a wedge.  There is nothing wrong with that.

As Tom Doak said, a great course can withstand any of those playing conditions.  And the real core of F&F is the strategy that is enhanced by the conditions, not negated by them: the utilization of, or damage done, but swales, contours, bumps, etc.  F&F conditions enhances and magnifies those design elements.  

A few years ago on my home course they lost the ability to control the watering, resulting in very fast conditions.  Anyone who played the course in those days knows A) how much fun it was and B) how much more the contours became a real consideration in all areas, driving the ball, approach shots and around and on the green.  Doglegs became particularly problematic.

Locally, the only time I saw overly F&F condtions was during a drought year.  At Tilden Park and Crystal Springs, which both have severely canted fairways, it was next to impossible to find a fairway with your tee shot.  Even shaping the ball one way or the other to minimize the roll left or right, you could not hold the fairways.  

Think the 17th fairway at the Olympic Lake Course during the '87 US Open.

Other than that, I think F&F is always preferable and ultimately more challenging AND fun.

[Tom Huckaby]

More great stuff guys.

John - bingo!  The light bulb goes on over my head.  17 Olympic during the Open is a great example.  If a ball won't stay in the fairway just due to gravity, that's too fast - akin to my "infinite putting" concept on the greens (which by the way is what I called it, but I like "perpetual putting" MUCH better - let's call this the Sheehan Modification of the Huckaby Theorem). 

But in any case, at least around here, this type of thing tends to happen only in drought years or at US Opens - either way an exception - so it's all good.

Bottom line does remain that erring on the side of firm is a good thing.  Here's hoping more courses do it... but Jon is wise not to hold his breath.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Just to take this thing on a side tangent...

I agree with huck in principle that fast and firm can be overdone.  But sometimes I wonder.  With all the bitching and moaning about how the PGA tour has turned into a drive-and-wedge fest, wouldn't every course going to fast and firm make it worse?

Instead of just 1/3 of the field hitting the long 300 yard drives, now almost every single one of these guys would be doing so.  So for a few holes where these guys are hitting mid or long irons, they are now hitting short iron and wedges.

And the short 4s turn into glorified par 3s, and all the par 5's turn into long par 4's.  While fast and firm is great and I love it, if every course went to this, wouldn't it make these holes even more absurd for the pros?  Think of how long they would have to build courses then?  8000 yards + at sea level.

[David Stamm]

Just to take this thing on a side tangent...

I agree with huck in principle that fast and firm can be overdone.  But sometimes I wonder.  With all the bitching and moaning about how the PGA tour has turned into a drive-and-wedge fest, wouldn't every course going to fast and firm make it worse?

Instead of just 1/3 of the field hitting the long 300 yard drives, now almost every single one of these guys would be doing so.  So for a few holes where these guys are hitting mid or long irons, they are now hitting short iron and wedges.

And the short 4s turn into glorified par 3s, and all the par 5's turn into long par 4's.  While fast and firm is great and I love it, if every course went to this, wouldn't it make these holes even more absurd for the pros?  Think of how long they would have to build courses then?  8000 yards + at sea level.

Keep in mind, Kalen, that ideally F&F works best when it intercacts with hazards. Sure, if someone is piping it where the ideal areas are off the tee and into the greens, then yes he's going to shoot a low score. But if not, the F&F conditions will send his ball into trouble. This is precisely why alot of the GA arch's professed their dislike of rough. The rough negates this interaction. I believe that under the conditions that they prescribed as ideal, if a player executes the bold shot, he/they would not have a problem with these short shots in (within reason) even though their courses play shorter than they intended because of today's equipment.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom H.,
I was just out your way but didn't have time to play Pasatiemp on this trip though I've played in many times in the past.  I have not read the other posts so this may have already been covered but I'm not sure I buy into the ideal maintenance meld theory??  What I have found is that the best courses are interesting "and different" to play in all kinds of conditions.  Granted when I am playing a true links course in Scotland, the firmer the better.  But that does not mean it is not fun to play after a few days of rain.  You just have to think your way around differently and play other kinds of shots. 

If it rained solid for a day at Pasatiempo and you and your buddy played afterward, you both would have a whole different playing experience.  Variety is the spice of golf.
Mark

[Rich Goodale]

As I mentioned on another thread, I played a course over the past two days (Monifieth) that was playable, but not particularly fun due to the combination of extremely firm and fast fairways (the greens were only slightly less so) and high winds (30-40 mph).  Downwind, even 440 yard holes were a rescue club and a wedge, with the latter having to be dropped 30-50 yards short of the green to have any chance of staying on.  Into the wind, 380 yard holes required a solid drive and a 3-wood to get close.

Even if it had been a calm day, however, I think the course was too firm and fast, as virtually all of the holes would have required landing approach shots 20-30 yards short, and with the fairways full of micro-undulations, it would be a crap-shoot as to where you're ball would finish up.  Ironically it is the long and straight drivers who benefit most from those condidtions, as they can get the ball very close to many greens, and be able to bump and run their approach shots or hit little choked fast checking wedges.  Monifieth is not that short a course (~6,700 yards), but it would have to be at least 1000 yards longer (IMO) to make a strong player use more than 5 or 6 of the clubs in his bag.

If I were running the club I would be praying for rain, and since it is Scotland, these prayers would probably be answered.

[Chris Tritabaugh]

This same issue came up in my first season as Superintendent at Northland CC in Duluth, MN.  In previous years ball were backing up in the fairways in July.  Last year we went in the opposite direction and while there was some back room chatter against the conditions and/or appearance most of the vocal opinions were very positive.  The fun was almost always used by someone complimenting the conditions.  A number of our better/longer players were concerned that the course was going to play too short and therefore too easy.  One of these particular members was a 0-2 handicap who had never broken 70, talk about consistency.  At the beginning of the summer he felt the course was going to be too easy and every time we talked during the summer I asked if he had broken 70, he did but not at Northland.  He comment by the end of the summer was that the course is so tough from 100 yards and in that it didn't matter how far he was hitting the ball. 
One thing we also did was to keep the green speeds under control.  On any given day the speed was 9.5-11.  Fast but not ridiculous.  We did however, keep the greens very firm, which made being in the fairway key.  Pasatiempo sounds very much like Northland in that its defense is the green complexes and the contours of the greens.
As a Superintendent I take as much pride in providing and producing ideal playing conditions as I do providing quality turf. 

[Sean_A]

Yesterday I had the great fortune of playing Pasatiempo with two great guys, and with the course playing at it's absolute perfect "maintenance meld" as I see it.  By that I mean, the fairways were very firm allowing for lots of roll; the rough was medium height causing plenty of problems, but not mandating any hackouts; and the greens were very quick, but not so quick as to allow for absurdity/infinite putting.  It was the best I have ever seen the course in terms of condition, and wow did it ratchet up the thinking, and skill, required to achieve decent scores!  After some initial bad play induced-bitching by yours truly, I came to realize that this was what it was all about for this course... it required all that one could muster, but if one did play thoughtfully and execute well, success was there to be had.  Wow was it fun.

But along the way, I was reminded of a thought by huge hitter and all-around great guy Jon Spaulding that when Pasa played this firm, it was TOO MUCH as he saw it.  That is, he got a drive on 10 to 110 in (due to the firmness allowing for huge roll) and that to him made it TOO short... the thought being no one ever should have a wedge into that long, strong par four.

And I think he is correct to some extent - Mackenzie sure didn't mean for anyone to have wedge into 10.  But that being said, I don't think he would have minded that a great drive by a normal human like me allowed for a 7iron approach.  And then I think about all the fun shots that the firmness allows in and around the green... and the enjoyment and ego boost a guy like me gets when drives roll out as far as they did... And I'm thinking that Jon and those like him are just anomalies.  Yes, when it's firm, many holes at Pasa will play too short for Jon.  But they play so darn fun for the rest of us, in the end isn't it better to have it this firm?

I'm interested in any thoughts on this, both about Pasatiempo and any other course. 

TH

AwsHuckster

My take on f&f is that its based on season.  Nobody really talks about it, but when you let a course run with the weather it adds a load more variety through seasonal play.  IMO, this has to be a good thing.  I've said it before, I think the biggest difference between golf in the UK and the States is seasonal play VS trying to get the course to play similar all year round - or obviously so long as the course is open.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Is it relevant to point out that the firmest fastest Open venue of recent years saw a winner who only hit driver once in the tournament?  It seems to me that controlling the ball in these conditions becomes more important than in softer conditions and therefore rewards the more skillful player over the merely long.  Of course that depends on greens that are also F+F.  Firm, fast fairways and soft, easy to hold greens would be a nonsensical combination and I don't get a feel from Tom's original post as to how the greens at Pasatiempo were playing.

[Tom Huckaby]

Gents:

Rest assured the greens were also quite firm and fast - in fact I believe the greens were about a foot too fast to be optimal there at Pastiempo, with the incredible bold contours most greens possess there.

The question was does it get to a point where players are getting too much roll on the fairway such that they are hitting clubs into greens that they never really should be able to hit (ie SW on 10).

And I believe we've settled it in the case of Pasatiempo - that since the defense at the green does remain so great, even these wedges still present plenty challenge, and Mark makes a good point too - keeping the ball in the fairway then becomes more difficult also.

I am still interested in how this plays out at other courses, particularly those were firm and fast is normal.  Can it get to be too much at Rustic Canyon?  Wild Horse?  The great UK links? 

TH

[Joe Bentham]

Tom--
I think you keep missing the fundamental point everyone is trying to make.  SW from 100 yards to a F&F green is no picnic, it might not even be the right shot for the situation.  Good players like full yardages and with F&F conditions a 100 yard shot is going to have to be hit less then 100 yards (duh).
I think F&F will always be more challenging for good players.  When they hit the ball somewhere that is where they expect it to stay.  Good players are less likely to take a 'bad' bounce in stride.  Good players (amateurs) have a hard time aiming at anything other then the pin or close to the pin, and as we all know, on a F&F golf course that can lead to trouble. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom--
I think you keep missing the fundamental point everyone is trying to make.  SW from 100 yards to a F&F green is no picnic, it might not even be the right shot for the situation.  Good players like full yardages and with F&F conditions a 100 yard shot is going to have to be hit less then 100 yards (duh).
I think F&F will always be more challenging for good players.  When they hit the ball somewhere that is where they expect it to stay.  Good players are less likely to take a 'bad' bounce in stride.  Good players (amateurs) have a hard time aiming at anything other then the pin or close to the pin, and as we all know, on a F&F golf course that can lead to trouble. 

Joe:

No, I'm not missing it.  I see how it works at Pasatiempo, and I gather it would work at most courses also for the reasons you state.  I see how the overall net of difficulty makes up for the extra yardage gained.

It's just that a very astute friend and playing partner made the comment about Pasa not playing like it should, for him, and in a very real way I think he makes a great point.  He really shouldn't ever have a sand wedge into #10, regardless of how difficult that SW might be.  In the end I do think he's an anomaly so it remains all good on the net.

But I do continue to wonder about other courses.  And again, this need not be a question of difficulty - either getting too easy due to extremely shortened distance, or too hard due to other factors... it could be a question of absurdity.

So I will ask you, Joe:  does it ever get TOO firm and fast at Bandon?  Could you see a situation where it might?

TH

[Mark Pearce]

Tom,

I still think you're missing the point.  Why shouldn't he have a sand wedge to that green?  If the coursewas as F&F as you say then he probably had to land it 30 yards short of the green and run in.  If he could hit the green and stop it then it wasn't as F&F as we think you mean.  If he couldn't then it would be as difficult getting a SW close from inside 100 yards as a 4 iron from 200 in less F&F conditions.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

I still think you're missing the point.  Why shouldn't he have a sand wedge to that green?  If the coursewas as F&F as you say then he probably had to land it 30 yards short of the green and run in.  If he could hit the green and stop it then it wasn't as F&F as we think you mean.  If he couldn't then it would be as difficult getting a SW close from inside 100 yards as a 4 iron from 200 in less F&F conditions.

Mark:

Sigh.  No, I am missing no point; I just can't make my point, or Jon's, clear to the rest of you.

He hit a shot to a hole and had 110 in; the same hole he had played many times before and had never gotten within 150.  It just didn't seem right.  And the reason he was able to do it was because of the very firm and fast conditions he faced that day.  To him it was TOO FIRM, for just this reason.  It seems like a very reasonable take to me.

But as I've explained several times now, the hole worked even with this, he's an anomaly, it's plenty difficult, etc.  In the end my friend Jon just needs to live with this.

So you tell me what point am I missing.....

And I'd sure love it if someone would get past this and answer my question about other courses.  I am not saying one way or the other; heck, maybe it is impossible to be too firm and fast.  Maybe every course works, as I believe Pasa does.

I'd just love to discuss some other examples....

TH