[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

I won't say that Liberty National is inaccessible, but, logistically, TN has to be a vast improvement even if it's more than a little remote.

I look at TN and Ridgewood as follows.

When I wake up in the morning I like to look next to me and see a woman who doesn't need to spend two hours with make up and hair preparation.
The raw beauty is there.  So it is with Ridgewood.  The trees you find so objectionable are like excess makeup, easily removed.  However, you seem fixated on that minor element, choosing to ignore the underlying attributes of the golf course in favor of a glitzy new comer.

Some of the holes at TN are mediocre to bad holes, Ridgewood doesn't have any mediocre to bad holes.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

C'mon - please. I've seen Ridgewood up close no less than you. I respect the course immensely but the tree situation is still there. They have done a good bit of work and deserve credit for that. I've said that -- several times. But, the tree removal / trim jobs are still needed.

TN doesn't have the tree issue to any degree that Ridgewood has.

It's not a "minor element" in my mind and for us to bat this ball back and forth won't change your mind or you mine. We see it differently - simple as that.

Pat, another misnomer on your part. I see TN as being slightly ahead of Ridgewood. That's my opinion. You don't share it. So be it -- again.

I do take issue with you concerning my placement of courses because you seem to believe I'm in "favor of a glitzy new comer. My analysis of TN doesn't give brownie points to the facility because of The Donald or any other such irrelevant factor. I simple opined on what I saw there and stated my collective listing of courses that I have played. Pat, my experience in weighing the merits or lack thereof of different courses isn't swayed by some sort of gimmick or other such trivial or inconsequential aspect. Disagreements will happen but I do have Ridgewood rated very highly among all the metro NYC area courses I have ever played.

And, again, let me point out, I did salute the course for what it provided during The Barclays. Several times over and over and over.

You close your comments by saying that TN has "some ... holes at TN are mediocre to bad holes." Would enjoy seeing your listing with details to support such a conclusion on your part.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt - I was just relating the caddy's comments.  I've never set foot on Westchester, and am therefore completely unqualified to speak to its quality.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

If you ever get an opportunity to either walk or play Westchester West jump on it pronto.

It's a gem of a layout which proves that distance isn't needed to make the top players really think on all types of shots.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

How would you classify # 15 and # 16 at TN ?  (current # 12 & # 13)

Great ?
Good ?
Mediocre ?
Bad ?

As mentioned before, the par 3's are all clones of one another, hardly a trademark of greatness.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Before answering your question - how bout you answer mine which came initially from you making the statement that TN has "some ... are mediocre to bad holes."

I then asked you to explain your reasoning. Then you play tapdance and ask me to answer first. Pat, how bout you bat the ball and I'll be sure to field it after you take your swing?

One further thing -- Ridgewood isn't bulletproof and I mentioned a few holes that are indeed less than stellar. Let me also add the 1st two holes on the West Nine in that category and also the 1st on the Center Nine.

Look forward to your detailed reply to your original statement.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt Ward,

The original 16th, current 13th isn't the best of holes

With any breeze in the golfers face they can't carry the water hazard that sits well below the tee.

The area short of the water doesn't allow for laying up.

If one hits short of the water, into rough, the approach shot is nearly impossible with a relatively narrow green on a semi dogleg hole, not to receptive to a long approach from that angle, with dense woods left of the fairway and green making that approach shot even more penal, if not impossible.

The hole plays to the following yardages.

Yards 
480
438
405
337
268 

From 438 and 405 it remains a difficult tee shot to carry the water into a breeze, which is quite prevalent with the tee sitting high up on that hill.

The previous hole is no bargain either.

It's a fairly severe uphill hole, blind on the approach with disaster short, left and right off the tee.

While your opinion may differ on these two holes, I've heard enough about them from others, that when combined with my own experience and views, reinforce my opinion.


 

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I can understand your comments but I don't see those elements significantly lowering the course to the degree you mentioned. I also pointed out the fact that Ridgewood is far from being bulletproof.

Either way -- I still see Ridgewood as an elite area course.

Since you have seen my listing of courses -- I'd be curious to know where you would place Ridgewood in the overall metro NYC area of courses you have played? Would you have it in the first ten ? Second ten ?

Is it the best NJ course in your mind besides Pine Valley ?

Glad to know your opinions have been reinforced -- I simply see it differently.

[Steve Lapper]

Matt Ward,

The original 16th, current 13th isn't the best of holes

With any breeze in the golfers face they can't carry the water hazard that sits well below the tee.

The area short of the water doesn't allow for laying up.

If one hits short of the water, into rough, the approach shot is nearly impossible with a relatively narrow green on a semi dogleg hole, not to receptive to a long approach from that angle, with dense woods left of the fairway and green making that approach shot even more penal, if not impossible.

The hole plays to the following yardages.

Yards 
480
438
405
337
268 

From 438 and 405 it remains a difficult tee shot to carry the water into a breeze, which is quite prevalent with the tee sitting high up on that hill.

The previous hole is no bargain either.

It's a fairly severe uphill hole, blind on the approach with disaster short, left and right off the tee.

While your opinion may differ on these two holes, I've heard enough about them from others, that when combined with my own experience and views, reinforce my opinion.


 

Pat:

   You are only partially right. The forced carry on that particular hole is no more than 190 yds from the 405 tee box. Yes, there is no bailout, but anyone unable to give it a reasonable go should move up to the white/reds (on the other side of the H2O). The predominant (prevailing) wind is from the SW and thus at the players back way more often than not.

What's more troubling about the hole (and redundant of the 7th as well) is its severe and narrow green that is well-crowned on three-out-of-four sides. The green rejects most anything less than perfectly lofted 7> iron onto the the middle area of it's "L" shape. The 7th's green, a rather poor attempt at a reverse redan, rejects nearly all shots without full air brakes and parachutes. A low-trajectory knockdown won't work on either green.....not exactly a great design feature , is it? These two holes (and NOT the old 15th/re-routed12th... an excellent uphill par 4) are examples of poor design and playability IMHO. Otherwise, the course is a very sturdy test on a marvelous piece of property.

For those who care, I'm told the new course opened this weekend and is visually beautiful. Friends tell me it plays much, much easier than the "older" course, as the Pro's and Super have set the tees near 6470yds and made the holes fun and pleasurable for their members, without sacrificing the strategy that remains embedded in the Tommy Fazio, Jr. design. Having walked/biked it a few times, it flows around the old course and has the bulk of its holes along the windswept ridgeback that dissects the property. It doesn't feel like excessive dirt was moved around by this Fazio. Wind will definitely impact this course and may ultimately be the fangs that toughen this track. All in all, a very solid effort by this Fazio!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

The 405 tee is a forward tee, the hole has a tee at 438, which would require a carry of 223 and a tee at 480 which would require a carry of 265.

I consider both carries to be more than heroic into any wind, let alone a good breeze.

If the golfer can't carry the pond, there's no where to lay up.

And, as you and I both stated, the green is extremely difficult to hit.

It's simply a bad hole despite Matt Ward's praise.

And, the four par 3's are almost identical to one another, in terms of yardage and the carry over the ponds/hazards.

# 1 and # 2 West and # 1 Center at Ridgewood aren't BAD holes.

For member play I find them to be terrific opening holes and I think # 2 can be a very demanding hole with great contourning in the putting surface, great bunkering surrounding the green and a fairly demanding drive.

# 1 Center has eaten more than a few players lunch.

# 1 West is a fairly benign starting hole, but certainly not a pushover, especially for the members who play it every day.

[Jed Peters]

For those who care, I'm told the new course opened this weekend and is visually beautiful. Friends tell me it plays much, much easier than the "older" course, as the Pro's and Super have set the tees near 6470yds and made the holes fun and pleasurable for their members, without sacrificing the strategy that remains embedded in the Tommy Fazio, Jr. design. Having walked/biked it a few times, it flows around the old course and has the bulk of its holes along the windswept ridgeback that dissects the property. It doesn't feel like excessive dirt was moved around by this Fazio. Wind will definitely impact this course and may ultimately be the fangs that toughen this track. All in all, a very solid effort by this Fazio!

Jed:

I hope to play the new TN layout shortly. I am in the mountain time zone now for roughly two weeks and will not be back in the Garden State until sometime in early September.

Jed, can you provide any details even from what you saw. Is the new 18 going to be really different than the first? I've heard a number of good reports and frankly it has peaked my curiosity to see what goes.

Matt:

I posted pictures on this website of virtually every hole.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35774.0.html

I was very impressed by what I saw, and I believe that it will be a very enjoyable layout, more "fun" than the Old course from the looks of it.

I'm extremely excited to see it, and may have to schedule a special trip to do just that next summer sometime.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Well said -- TN does have a solid site that few really talk about.

Pat:

Hold the phone amigo -- where did I "praise" the hole in question at TN. I don't see it as being as bad as you mentioned. Big difference.

Pat, the holes I listed from Ridgewood are not as grand as many others. The 1st of the West is still choked w trees and needs a good buzz cut. #2 West is another so-so hole that doesn't really add much to the table either. The 1st of the Center is really quite weak in my mind and I am aware of your feelings being different. Frankly, the tree issue is more prevalent than you let on. No doubt there's a sensitivity to the issue but other clubs have done far more on that front and Ridgewood can do more to alleviate the clutter they provide.

I do love the Paramus layout but it's far from being bulletproof. I also asked you in a previous message where would you place Ridgewood (any combo) among the top metro NYC area courses? Still waiting for you to provide some meaningful perspective on its overall placement beyond the fact that you see Trump National as a course with a number of mediocre and bad holes.

Let me also point out that Ridgewood has a redundancy with two par-3's -- the 5th on Center is a drop shot type hole -- albeit quite tough at 217 yards from the tips. You also find a similar design feature with the 6th on the East which plays downhill to a yardage of 230 yards. Not much difference on that front. The 2nd on the East is also a yawn hole for me and others. I think one of the better par-3 holes is the 3rd on the West with the bunker that cuts in on the right side to a nicely elevated target. The 6th on the West is also a mediocre hole -- nothing more than a simple short iron to a green that is quite big -- too much in fact -- for the shot being played.

Pat, like I said previously, you've repeated over and over again you love for Ridgewood. I've said it too -- just not ahead of TN. So where do you place Ridgewood overall in the metro NYC area?

[Jim Nugent]

Matt, which courses in your Metro Area Top 50 make your U.S. Top 50? 

Will you do a separate post sometime (soon) of your U.S. or World Top 50? 

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

As an FYI -- I did a companion top public listing for the metro NYC area. Likely you can access that if interested.

In regards to your question of what Metro area courses make the USA top 50 or 100 I'd have to think that through. No doubt a number of them will but some won't because as I opined on this subject there are a number of unique courses in the metro NYC area that fly below the radar screen of national attention.

I have my own private listing of the top 100 courses I have played in the USA -- it does evolve. In regards to a possible world top 50 I would need to hold on that because I have not visited certain parts of the globe that likely would provide a number of key candidates for inclusion (e.g. Australia, New Zealand, Japan, to name just three).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

I'll respond to where I believe Ridgewood belongs in the Met Area in the next day or two.

I don't think you can compare the cookie cutter par 3's at TN to the variety that exists at Ridgewood's par 3's

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

While I think Ridgewood's par 3's are all good golf holes, wouldn't you say that as a group, the Par 5's rank #1, the Par 4's second, and the Par 3's third?

While 3 of my 5 favorite holes there are Par 4's, ALL the Par 5's are great. So "on average" the Par 5's are the best.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,

Years ago I remarked that Ridgewood had one of the finest sets of par 5's of any golf course.

Just because their par 5's and par 4's are outstanding, doesn't mean that their par 3's are inferior.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

In your reply from 9/9 you said you would reply "shortly" with your reply on where Ridgewood belongs -- I'd also like to see what other layouts you would have among your elite favorites.

Thanks ...

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I'm thinking Pound Ridge would be more towards my 5th 10 if it made my top 50....again, I've only played 23 now in your top 50 so it's tough to make a complete comparsion.

I think there are some real property limitations there that lead to an extremely penal design although it does feature a pretty tremendous set of green complexes.   

It's amazing to me that Dye was able SQEEEEZZZZZEEEE 4 holes into the routing in the stretch from 10 through 13 given the slope of the land, the serious amount of rock, and the seemingly everpresent wetlands in that part of the course.     Then, once he does, your left with trying to play the extremly ungainly (with a huge forced carry from the tee) 14th hole.   

I couldn't help wishing that Dye had another 50 or so acres of usuable property here, because as mentioned, the greens offered some of his most refined and mature ideas that I've seen from him.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I'm glad you've played PR and weighed in with your comments.

I like PR for what it is -- no doubt many will find it over-the-top and quite penal -- especially in the driving zones provided. This is one course where the Eastwood famous line, "a man's got to know his limitatins," is quite apt and needs to be heeded completely. Play the wrong tees at PR and it's a big time ball donation for any round played there.

Mike, when you have property literaqlly "carved" out of dense trees and other assorted developmental issues -- you will get a layout with a very high CR and slope that clearly doesn't make it very user-friendly.

I respect what the Dyes did there and would include the course among my metro area top 10 public but it's not likely to find a place among my overall top 50 because the design had to be shoe-horned with such a forced feeling.

I still get nervous standing on the tee of the par-3 11th hole and knowing firsthand that tee balls from the 10th can reach you and that incoming fire can also happen with the directly opposite 12th hole. The 13th is also too narrow for sane play. I like the gambling aspect of the hole but most good players if pressed to make score there in a metal play event would hit no more than a five-iron off the tee and then another five-iron before hitting some sort of wedge. Going with driver is simply more risk than any reward can provide.

I see your point on the 14th but the more pressing issue that you didn't mention is how grass is on the containment mounding that frames the hole. This grass allows balls to STAY where they are and you are then forced to strike a pose that any modern artist would salute you for achieving and maintaining during any attempted play. The containment mounding should have been cut to fairway height to allow balls to roll down.

Mike, the problem w PR is that you also have a closing hole in which a tree is placed directly in the line of play from the tips and next tees in front of them. You have to avoid mega bunkers down the left side and silly containment mounding on the right side that is way too high with grass height. In addition, you have baby pine trees that are nothing more than poster children for various unplayable lies with any ball that even remotely comes near them.

I like PR but it runs the risk of being tagged the Westchester version of Shore Gate. No doubt the coursre will need to be tweaked because if you they get a full compliment of players 200+ they will need various on-course personnel to serve as forecaddies and the like.

Dye deserves credit for what they had to do on such a difficult site but PR can be even better if it realizes that one time play may be the reality for too many people and as a result the overall botton line may be impacted.

We shall see ...

[Matt_Ward]

Have to mention after being on site for the playing of the NJ PGA Championship the fantastic overall elements of Essex County CC in West Orange.

Hats off to Gil Hanse and George Bahto for the superlative efforts they have done to reassert the tremendous architectural elements that have always been present at this famed club. The design elements of Tillinghast and Banks are part and parcel of the course. Best of all, the weaknesses of the front side have been strengthened - they are not on par with the fantastic back nine but they reduce the disparity greatly between them.

For those who venture to the NY / NJ metro area a visit if possible to ECCC should be a mist item. Candidly, the course has the goods to be considered for Golfweek's top 100 classic designs.

[Matt_Ward]

A number of people contacted me and wondered if a listing can be created of top designed layouts in the NYC area that are no more than 6,600 yards from the tips. There are a number of ones worth including.

Be curious if any of the folks who post here has any candidates before the listing is included. Don't believe I can come up with a listing that is more than a top 25.

[Matt_Ward]

Since a few people have asked me I've included a listing of the top under 6,600 yard layouts (from the tips) within the greater NYC metro area.

Comments are most welcomed ...

In no particular order - my top 20 would include ...

Maidstone
Morris County
Montclair (#2 & #4)
CC of Fairfield
Somerset Hills
The Creek
Cold Spring
Sleepy Hollow
Old Oaks
Siwanoy
Fenway
Fisher's Island
Gardiner's Bay
Spring Lake (NJ)
Knollwood
Westhampton
Seawane
Southward Ho!
Rockaway Hunting Club
Shackamaxon or possibly Huntington

[Ted Kramer]

Pat,

While I think Ridgewood's par 3's are all good golf holes, wouldn't you say that as a group, the Par 5's rank #1, the Par 4's second, and the Par 3's third?

While 3 of my 5 favorite holes there are Par 4's, ALL the Par 5's are great. So "on average" the Par 5's are the best.

I was lucky enough to play 1 round at Ridgwood about 4 years ago.
The 2 holes I remember best are the five and dime and the par 5 along the cemetary with the really small green. I loved that par 5!

-Ted

[Robert Emmons]

How about these under 6,700:

Maidstone
Westhampton
Creek Club
Huntington
Fishers Island
Rockaway Hunt Club
Southward Ho
Seawane
Nassau
Glen Head
Inwood
Gardiners Bay
CC of fairfield
Sleepy Hollow
Fenway
Apawamis
Wykagyl
Canoe Brook south
Deal
Somerset hills
Essex fells
White Beeches

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