[Matt_Cohn]

http://www.golfweek.com/protours/pga/story/rude-060608

[John_Conley]

Wow, isn't the max slope 155?

I always figured Tour players to be at least a +5 handicap with Tiger at times running all the way to +10.  If that is an indication we'll see very few players under 290.

[John Moore II]

For players at that level, slope is a meaningless number. Its the differential between the Bogey rating and the Course (Scratch) rating, multiplied by some wierd number. But, either way, the course is hard. I can see people possibly shooting under par though.

[Jim Nugent]

JKM -- the weird number is 5.381. 

This slope and CR say bogey golfer will shoot around 108 at TP from the tips.  We just had a mini-test of that.  One 6 handicapper shot 98...another 6 shot 100...and an 8 shot 114.  What would a 20 handicapper, who drives the ball 200 yards, have shot there?  120?  130?  Don't know, but a whole lot more than 108, I bet. 

I know they use adjustments when doing slope.  Even so, slope at TP should be 155.  Better, drop the 155 cap.  Better still, drop slope altogether and use Bogey Rating instead. 

[Bryan Izatt]

Agreed, slope is meaningless to the tour players, but so is the course rating.  The CR is based on a scratch player who drives the ball 250 and other clubs on down from there.  Ain't anybody (including Pavin) who is that short.

Jim, did your am guinea pigs have indexes of 6, or course handicaps of 6?  If that's their index, then their course handicap would be 35% higher - like an 8 or 9.  The index is also an indication of their potential (best) not their average.  If they played it 20 times would their 10 best scores be  in the range of the single round?

[Matthew Hunt]

Question: If a top Am is off +4 does he play off +6 at torrey becuse of the slope?

[Jim Nugent]

Bryan, that was their indexes.  Not sure it makes much difference, though.  Say their course handicaps are eights or nines.  They still shot 20 over course rating.  Suggesting a 20 shoots 40 to 50 over or worse.  What's more, the 8 index shot 114.  35 over CR. 

Would they average better if they played the course 20 times?  Not so sure.  I think TP, set up for the U.S. Open, is too much of a bear for mid handicappers.  Way too long.  Way too much rough.  Greens way too fast. 

I especially don't see how someone whose handicap is 20, drives the ball 200 and can hit a 370 yard hole in two can average around 108 at Torrey, or any U.S. Open course that is set up for a U.S. Open.  120 to 130 sounds more like it to me.

My strong feeling is that we really see the vast difference between top pro's and everyone else on these ultra hard layouts.   

[John Moore II]

Matt--yes, that number you put out sounds right, I have never understood how if your index is plus, you have to give back more strokes on the harder course. It just makes no sense, you should, in theory, have to give back less.

[Glenn Spencer]

Bryan, that was their indexes.  Not sure it makes much difference, though.  Say their course handicaps are eights or nines.  They still shot 20 over course rating.  Suggesting a 20 shoots 40 to 50 over or worse.  What's more, the 8 index shot 114.  35 over CR. 

Would they average better if they played the course 20 times?  Not so sure.  I think TP, set up for the U.S. Open, is too much of a bear for mid handicappers.  Way too long.  Way too much rough.  Greens way too fast. 

I especially don't see how someone whose handicap is 20, drives the ball 200 and can hit a 370 yard hole in two can average around 108 at Torrey, or any U.S. Open course that is set up for a U.S. Open.  120 to 130 sounds more like it to me.

My strong feeling is that we really see the vast difference between top pro's and everyone else on these ultra hard layouts.   

So there is a vast difference. Why is that? Do you think it was that way 15-25 years ago?

[Doug Siebert]

The biggest issue for the bogey golfer on Torrey is probably going to be how far they'd have to carry the ball to reach the fairway.  They could probably hit a perfect drive on some holes and still be forced to play from the thick rough, so their lack of distance could cost them a couple strokes as they might need a couple hacks just to reach the fairway.  If they mowed the fairway back to a more reasonable carry distance for these guys they might play 10 or 15 shots better.  I'm just guessing about the carry distance to the fairways based on how it was at Bethpage Black a few years ago...

I wish they would have posted a shot by shot rundown of Romo and friends' round, it would be interesting to see where they lost their shots.

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