[Mike McGuire]

We decided to go to a mono flag color this year (yellow). The main reason was to unshackle the cup setter from having to use any formula to determine hole locations. Freedom to put the cup in an area that is rested or away from recent cups without having to subscribe to some red -white -blue system makes sense from a maintenance standpoint.

A lot of members miss the color coded system... but a former club champion didn't notice and a mid 20 was shocked that anyone would even care. We plan to let it run for the season and see if everyone gets used it.

[Paul Saathoff]

It's a brave new golf world and a lot of it just sux   Some folks just will never "get it" and they are easily in the majority now.

I think as long as they are outdoors enjoying playing the game of golf that all of us here have grown to love, they are "getting it."

The pretentiousness displayed on this site (and this thread is a prime example) is why most people will never take up the game and never get to experience the joy of playing that we all have been fortunate to experience.  I'm glad I grew up on a course that used red, white, and blue flags and had 150 yard shrubs.  It made me appreciate the game and the relationships formed on the course without all the BS that some of you seem preoccupied with. 

If traditionalism/minimalism is what you're after, give up your Pro V1s, your 460cc Titatanium Driver, your graphite shafts, your course's irrigation system and pesticide use, the maintenance crew's gas powered equipment, and lets ban women, children, the working class, and minorities from the game while we're at it. 

[Eric Pevoto]

Paul,

I grew up on a little muni course that, along with abundant crabgrass and  summer earth cracks in which you could lose a ball, had 150 yard shrubs and the whiffle balls on the pin showing position.  Hilarious because you'd be hard pressed to find a putt of more than 40 feet on any of them!

I'd hope to not come across as pretentious.  As for Dan, there's not a pretentious bone in him.  I, for one, just rue the number of contrivances that some golfers think they need to enjoy the sport.  Keep it as simple as possible.

[Wayne_Freedman]

It's a game. People take from it what they want. You cannot force fun on them. For me, that includes using a laser range finder because, frankly, I am too blind and lazy to count stripes on a stick. For me, much of the fun in this game centers around execution. I want to hit that 123 yard shot under pressure. If the pros get accurate distances from caddies, what is the difference?

Some of you are like...like....dare I write this?

FUNDAMENTALIST GOLFERS.

 

It's a brave new golf world and a lot of it just sux   Some folks just will never "get it" and they are easily in the majority now.

I think as long as they are outdoors enjoying playing the game of golf that all of us here have grown to love, they are "getting it."

The pretentiousness displayed on this site (and this thread is a prime example) is why most people will never take up the game and never get to experience the joy of playing that we all have been fortunate to experience.  I'm glad I grew up on a course that used red, white, and blue flags and had 150 yard shrubs.  It made me appreciate the game and the relationships formed on the course without all the BS that some of you seem preoccupied with. 

If traditionalism/minimalism is what you're after, give up your Pro V1s, your 460cc Titatanium Driver, your graphite shafts, your course's irrigation system and pesticide use, the maintenance crew's gas powered equipment, and lets ban women, children, the working class, and minorities from the game while we're at it.   

 

[Doug Siebert]

What I find funny is that when a course has colored flags for pin position it is inevitable that someone in your foursome will at some point during the round say something like "this shouldn't be a white flag there's no way this a front pin".  Its pretty obvious that there is some point on the green where you can use either color and be 'right', and it isn't as though the guys cutting the holes are using differential GPS equipment to determine the hole location to the centimeter so they know what flag color to use.

Not to mention the concept of the 'front' of the green is rather nebulous for an angled green, or one that is approached from a crescent shaped fairway.  I can think of a par 5 that when I go for it in two I'm coming in at nearly a 90* angle to where the fairway enters it, so the 'back' flag just means the pin is left and provides me with no information on how deep it is.  In this case the green is shallow and runs away from me so the effective depth is really only about 15-20 feet anyway, thus the location of the pin is the least of my concerns!

I remember once hearing someone suggest they could use flags that were checkered with the two colors for those in-between pins, but then it leaves the problem of what to put on the flags for holes that are exactly between the location of a solid color and checkered flag

[Sean_A]

Its a tough position to take, but I do believe archies need all the help they can get with being creative.  I agree with Pat M, the archie is meant to deceive us and the fun is in trying to read the clues to select the desired option.  This is a far cry from baby stuff, its golf design and using tools (including caddies) to gain an advantage is imo a very odd way to approach the game.  Having said that, I don't really care what people do or if the flags are coded.  I rarely pay attention to the colour coding.  I have grown so used to it not being available that I don't look for it anymore.  Besides, its usually some pimple face that does the setting and it is often questionable if they are correct.

Ciao

[Paul Saathoff]

You go first Paul.

  Are you saying I should quit?  What's your point?

[Matt MacIver]

If it were up to me I'd keep colored flags and ban rangefinders.  Colored flags give just enough "positive" information to make club selection, but then the courses I tend to like best don't necessarily reward one for firing right at the pin, so you need to use your head. 

We scrapped our colored flags two years ago and how have daily pin sheets, and rangefinders.  I'm confident that a) scores are not lower and b) rounds are longer. 

Now that the summer heat has arrived I'll switch out my 14- club carry bag for a 6-8 clubber and plot my way around the course!

[Dan Herrmann]

A day after writing that, now I know how goofy that came off.  Oops - more proof that I'm far from perfect

Fortunately, though, the guy responded very positively. 

[Brent Hutto]

Not that anyone cares but my preferences are more or less as follows...

My first choice would be something like colored flags.

Second choice might be one of those "Today is hole location #3" deals like my club uses.

Third choice would be the guy in the pro shop that takes my money tells me about the couple of front or back pins today that: a) aren't obvious from the fairway and b) are far enough from the center to matter. In a typical 18-hole round at my home course there are maybe 3-5 holes where you really need to know and can't see.

Fourth choice would be a detailed pin sheet like they hand out in tournaments (more info than I need and I don't like toting around a piece of paper).

Last choice is no information at all and I'll just club wrong once or twice.

But none of that is the point I want to make. My point is that no matter where on my scale of preferences a given course falls it will not and can not interfere with my enjoyment of a round of golf. The only exception might be a stroke-play tournament but I tend to avoid those those anyway. If a course is a good one, it will be fun, interesting and challenging to play whether it has colored flags or not. Blind shots or not. Pin sheets or laser rangefinders or nine zones or nothing at all.

I honestly can't believe anyone gives a damn about any of that stuff to the extent of it ruining their experience. I wouldn't play a boring course just because it has colored flags. And I wouldn't downgrade a good course that had Pat Mucci or Sean Arble as dictator and expected me to play sans flags, sans yardage markers and sans every other modern convenience. If it's a good course it'll be fun to play.

I think the most significant downside to an enthusiasts' forum like this one is the tendency over time to encourage one-upmanship w.r.t. the extremes to which its members can distill their picky little quibbles and idiosyncratic preferences into pure, concentrated, bloody-minded bullshit. It seems a slippery slope from "Isn't it fun to play bare-bones courses with no yardage indicators" to "Three-colored flags will ruin a perfectly good minimalist, purist, whatever-ist golf course and anyone who doesn't see that is completely missing the big picture".  That's a recipe for turning enthusiastic golfer and golf architecture lovers into parodies of themselves in just a few short years.

[Bart Bradley]

I honestly can't believe anyone gives a damn about any of that stuff to the extent of it ruining their experience. I wouldn't play a boring course just because it has colored flags. And I wouldn't downgrade a good course that had Pat Mucci or Sean Arble as dictator and expected me to play sans flags, sans yardage markers and sans every other modern convenience. If it's a good course it'll be fun to play.

I think the most significant downside to an enthusiasts' forum like this one is the tendency over time to encourage one-upmanship w.r.t. the extremes to which its members can distill their picky little quibbles and idiosyncratic preferences into pure, concentrated, bloody-minded bullshit. It seems a slippery slope from "Isn't it fun to play bare-bones courses with no yardage indicators" to "Three-colored flags will ruin a perfectly good minimalist, purist, whatever-ist golf course and anyone who doesn't see that is completely missing the big picture".  That's a recipe for turning enthusiastic golfer and golf architecture lovers into parodies of themselves in just a few short years.

Bravo..here, here.

Bart

[Paul Saathoff]

Kelly,

Sorry, I didn't know sarcasim was unnacceptable in this forum.  On a serious note, no, I don't totally equate "traditionalists" with racism or any other ism, but feel the elitist and pretentious attitude that some here take on the game is exactly what drives many people away from the game.  To write a lengthy letter extolling the "virtues of minimilist design" when the man just wanted to know where the damn pin is, is just taking things a biiiiit too far in my opinion.  And on a side note:  Is the term "colored flags" politically correct.... sorry I couldn't help myself.  

[Dan Herrmann]

Paul / Bart / Brent / others,

No disagreement.  I appreciate your comments, because I think you're right.  Having relfected on what you said (especially Brent), I thank you.  You made me rethink my attitude.

Maybe I should I have said "No colored flags because we just think they look crappy?" 

[John_Cullum]

Dan

What's wrong with trying to come up with a simple system to let your members know about where the flag is? Is that really too much for a member to ask. Who is signing your paycheck?

[Brent Hutto]

Maybe I should I have said "No colored flags because we just think they look crappy?" 

I think that's a very defensible statement and one that is unfortunately most often true.

For my part white is good, yellow is fine and beyond that I have a hard time coming up with a third color that doesn't look crappy. Probably a not-too-fire-engine-red would be the least crappy to my eye. So even though I like the coded flags and my club doesn't have them, I haven't written any letters suggesting it.

Actually, at our course I'd settle for sticking with white flags but putting a yellow flag up any day a certain hole or two have the suicide hole location that's perched right on the tippy-tip back of the green or right on the brow of the false front.

Our ninth green is way up on hill, almost a skyline green. Depending on the angle of the sun you sometimes think that a flag barely atop the false front looks like it's on the back. So you take two extra clubs to get it to the back and there is no way on earth to avoid either running your third shot back down into the fairway or leaving it a good ways above the hole. But if you know it's really all the way down front you just play for a couple yards short of the green and make par easily.

[Don_Mahaffey]

 I've set-up golf courses almost everyday for years. My take on this is,
1. Most players want yardage and hole location info. It's just the way it is. Every week they see the PGA tour guys calculating every move and they think that's what you’re supposed to do. It's the way it is, and no one here is going to change that.
2. Keep your yardage markers simple and easily found and it helps to speed play. Watching four guys who can't break 90 marching around the fwy trying to find sprinkler heads and then consulting pin sheets is just too much. Most players are just fine with some sort of simple 150 marker.
3. Colored flags work great for communicating hole locations. Yes, Larry the Lawyer will occasionally point out that you had it wrong when you have a tweener, but Larry is always looking for something and you can't worry too much about him. It is very easy for the set-up guy to have a flagstick carrier on his cart to keep the colors straight. Of all the possible methods to mark hole locations I like the colored flag system the best because it gives me some leeway in my set up. After that, if I have enough help and the pro shop is easy to work with than pin sheets would be my next choice, as it still allows me to spread the wear around and adjust to the weather. By far my least favorite method is the pre-determined numbering system as in "today is #3 hole location" or however you describe it. This method gives me no room to protect the green or adjust to the weather. If hole location #3 is front right over a hazard with trouble behind and I've got a hole playing in a down wind gale, I have no way to change that. People who don't care for the course or who don't know how to set-up like this method because they think it keeps the course evened out with just the right amount of front-middle-back, left-right ratios. What it really should be called is course set-up for dummies because that is what it is.

I'll take colored flags any day over most of the alternatives.

[Sean Leary]

On my course, there is a small peg board carved into a log  on the tee of a couple of holes where it isn't easy to tell. Staff just moves the peg.Works quite well.

[Chris Garrett]

Dan,

I saw your follow up comment to your letter, so I'll go easy on you.  As an outsider reading your letter, it came across (as others have mentioned) with a preaching, lecture, "I'm right and you're wrong" tone.  You must always be sympathetic to your members.  My hope is that you don't write such detailed letters to every inquiry or suggestion taken via the member survey (or where ever the suggestion came from).  Next time, I might suggest a phone call to the member, inquiring further about their reasons for the colored flag system.  Understand what they are really trying to get out it all.  Most of the time, if one member expresses a concern or offers a suggestion, there are others who feel the same way.*  In talking to him, you could better present your case and come to a compromise and understanding.  I'm glad that your member warmly accepted the letter, but it may be worth a follow-up and a personal thank you for the suggestion.  An easy way to lose the respect of members is to be one who easily dismisses the ideas, suggestions, etc. - both in golf and in the business world (And in no way am I implying that you were doing so)

* The exception is when the suggestions clearly border on insanity.  When I was in the business, working at high end country club, we had one suggestion to install a ball washer at the bag drop so that the member could clean all of the golf balls which he/she fished out of the lakes and streams during their round. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Chris - we have some unique circumstances that hopefully can help let you know where I was coming from.  We're a very young and quite informal non-equity club.  This was just an e-mail that the member sent to my friend who's the president.

As we all know, e-mail has its plusses and negatives.  Speed is one of the negatives - if I had slept on it, I'd never have sent the note out.

But I think the biggest factor is that our course has undergone a rebirthing this year.  Gil did an awesome job designing the course, but it suffered quite a bit in its first few years due to myraid of reasons.  Last year, our owner had enough when greens kept getting burned out due to over fertilization.  There were a lot of other problems, but the gist of it was that we had a very special golf course "buried" under maintenance neglect. 

Our owner worked with the BOD to bring in a new greenkeeper.   The new guy is an experienced veteran that really understands agronomy.  He also understands architecture very well (much better than I).  And he's reestablished relationships with Gil and Jim Wagner.  This has resulted in a course that is playing as intended for the first time.  Greens are firm and smooth, fairways are wonderful, and native grasses have been allowed to flourish for the first time.   

All that said, those of us that have been there since the beginning in 2003 are very proud of the place and, honestly, we get a bit defensive when it comes to things we don't think jive with the original intent of the club.  I don't think it's as elitist as it is a sense of being a proud papa that wants to see what was an ugly duckling become the beauty she is becoming.  In other words, we're overprotective.

I'm guilty as charged.  But I wanted to let you know where I was coming from.

Thanks!

[John_Cullum]

Lastly, there's the factor that almost no all great courses use the colored flag system.   Look at the better clubs in our area, and you'll see that very few, if any, use colored flags.  Merion (Wilson), Pine Valley (Crump), Stonewall (Doak/Hanse), Hidden Creek (Coore & Crenshaw), Gulph Mills (Ross), etc...   None use colored flags.    Nor do world class public courses like Pacific Dunes (Doak).

What is the point of identifying the architects of these courses? What does that have to do with the issue of colored flags?

[Dan Herrmann]

John - it's just a habit that I picked up from CSPAN.

For example, Sen. Casey (D-Pennsylvania), or Rep. King (R-NY)

[Chris Cupit]

It's a brave new golf world and a lot of it just sux   Some folks just will never "get it" and they are easily in the majority now.

I think as long as they are outdoors enjoying playing the game of golf that all of us here have grown to love, they are "getting it."

The pretentiousness displayed on this site (and this thread is a prime example) is why most people will never take up the game and never get to experience the joy of playing that we all have been fortunate to experience.  I'm glad I grew up on a course that used red, white, and blue flags and had 150 yard shrubs.  It made me appreciate the game and the relationships formed on the course without all the BS that some of you seem preoccupied with. 

If traditionalism/minimalism is what you're after, give up your Pro V1s, your 460cc Titatanium Driver, your graphite shafts, your course's irrigation system and pesticide use, the maintenance crew's gas powered equipment, and lets ban women, children, the working class, and minorities from the game while we're at it. 

Paul,

"Getting it" is the opposite of pretentiousness in my book.  I think the game was better with less emphasis on course conditioning and I think the push by equipment companies to sell the latest and greatest titanium club or titanium gadget has made the game too expensive for many people.

For the record, I own and operate a club THAT SINCE ITS INCEPTION in 1973, in the south (Atlanta) has not only NEVER discriminated against any group we actually have had minorrity members since our first year of operation.

We have black, brown, yellow and white golfers.  We have men and women and we do NOT restrict when women can play (Thursday is ladies day until 11:00 however.)    I will hold up the diversity and values of my club to anyone's.  Are we perfect--absolutely not, but I only give a damn about having members who love and appreciate the game.

Why those of us who respect the traditions of the game and who think polite manners (a gentleman taking his hat off inside) is akin to being a fire-breathing, neanderthal, right-wing, Nazi is beyond me but I think that attitude is far more revealing about you than me.  Do you know me that well   Have we ever met?

More for the record:

My club allows walking anytime, it is an inexpensive "entry level" private club for my area, has never had an assessment, values golf over an elaborate clubhouse or fountains, values "rougher" conditions over pristine conditions.  I donate my time, energy and money to three main golf groups--the GSGA (my state golf association), the USGA and the Atlanta Junior Golf Association.  My club donates use of the course at no cost to several high school teams as well as the AJG and I came up with a junior golf membership several years ago designed for kids who are unable to afford a place to play because there parents are unable to join a club for them.

We run 8 junior clinics a year at no cost and in every case our junior members are encouraged to bring their friends (member or not) also at no charge.  (My junior guest fee is $5 on weekdays, weekends and holidays).

Here's another tradition at my club--once a year we have a "Rules and Etiquette" class designed to teach people the basics.  We had over 90 people  a week or so ago with a large number of parents, ladies, kids and seniors.  Was this one of your "-ISMS"?   Was this an elitist attempt to brainwash people into fixing ball marks or knowing where to drop under a lateral water hazard rule??

I will put up my record for trying to provide affordable family golf with most anyone's.  My dad was a golf pro, his four brothers are golf pros and while I am not a pro I have spent my life playing the game and seeing that as many people can develop a love and affection for this great game (and hopefully join my club too )

I am the opposite of pretentiousness if you look at what my family's life's work is about.  I grew up as a junior with woods, balata balls, no colored flags and played under conditions that would be unacceptable to many people today. 

I didn't need what it appears you think "women, children, the working class, and minorities" need to enjoy the game and in fact those that don't "get it" and who emphasize everything but the essence of the game are making it HARDER for people to enjoy this game.

Those that want GPS on carts, lasers on par three tees, multi colored flags, hundreds of yardage markers, 150 shrubs, pristine "green" conditions, beverage cart girls on each nine, every gadget and the latest and greatest in clubs and balls are the one I speak of who don't "get it".  The game should be simply about enjoying a stick and ball game outdoors.  In a misguided attempt to make the game "FUN" and therfore better for everyone, we are ruining it.

Lastly, I really, really do not care what  other clubs do.  I enjoy reading a variety of options and perspectives and hopefully I can integrate some of the ideas into my operation.  But, I hope I don't ever judge a person's motives or their values as you have just because I hold a different opinion. 

Dan,

I appreciate your perspective and obviously I understand the inclination to "protect your baby".  It amazes me that wanting to preserve or protect things or values is so demonized by some.  I hope you can come up with a solution that helps speed of play, satisfies your members and maintains a "look and feel" you want.

Good luck.

[Sean_A]

I honestly can't believe anyone gives a damn about any of that stuff to the extent of it ruining their experience. I wouldn't play a boring course just because it has colored flags. And I wouldn't downgrade a good course that had Pat Mucci or Sean Arble as dictator and expected me to play sans flags, sans yardage markers and sans every other modern convenience. If it's a good course it'll be fun to play.

Brent

You misunderstand me.  I don't expect anything from you.  I simply gave you my preference and expressed bewilderment at guys who want to find ways to reduce architectural merit with aids.  Its one thing if you play for a living, but nearly all of us play recreationally.  The one area I would strongly disagree with you concerns concealment of the flag not being good architecture.  It can be a form of the best architecture especially when a player is caught out of position.  What use is positional play where architecture is concerned if a player can in part mitigate the disadvantage of hitting his ball in the wrong spot? 

I will give you a great situation.  The last time I was badly caught out was at Lederach.  On the 9th I came up well short of the flag because I misjudged the size of the green by a huge margin and likely how much uphill the approach is.  I can honestly see Kelly incorporating these two elements to catch out an unobservant golfer - he wouldn't be the first archie to do so.  It worked on me.  Would I want a machine or system to tell me the yardage or would I rather live and learn?  Its a no brainer so far as I am concerned. 

Ciao

[Brent Hutto]

Sean,

No I didn't take you to be telling me how to play. I was simply saying that even if you built and ran a course with no yardage aids whatsoever, if it were a good course I wouldn't consider it less good because I didn't have yardage aids.

For my part, eliminating knowledge of distance certainly does not add to the worth of a course but neither does it ruin my enjoyment.

[Patrick_Mucci]

All of you MORONS arguing for colored flags have no concept of the difficult position it puts the superintendent in should, god forbid, one of his staff mis-locate one of the color coded flags.

Golfers/members complain bitterly when an indicator is incorrect.

In addition, it may have rained during the night, making the intended location undesirable, which can result in an erroneous coding.

Lastly, for decades it was traditional to have the club's flags logoed and distinctive.  Hokying it up with color codings erodes the tradition.

Many clubs had/have one color flag for the front nine and another color for the back nine.

If you want to color code hole location, do it with the top of the 150 marker or a marker on the tee.

Leave the flags alone.

Doug Siebert,

How does a caddy, going on his first loop of the day, have any idea of where the holes are located ?

What's comical about this issue is that the one's clamoring for more information have usually been playing the golf course for 20+ years.

I always get a kick out of listening to a long time member ask the caddy, who's been at the club for all of one week, how the green breaks.

Golfers have become lazy and want the information spoon fed to them, when it's usually available to the observant player.

Stop whinning and play away.

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