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Steve Hyden

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Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2008, 11:11:28 AM »
Colony West, Tamarac, FL, is very interesting and challenging.  Considering that it winds through a less-than-upscale condo development in a very busy part of town, the architects did a very nice job of minimizing the negative visual impact of the condos by angling approaches away from them in a number of instances.  And many of the holes are good enough to absorb the player so that one doesn't notice the surroundings.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2008, 11:23:05 AM »
Looks like I will have to look up Secession and Boca Rio in my CG this weekend.

It almost sounds as if had this website existed in Bruce's heyday, he and vonHagge might have been a favorite here as C&C are now. Do you suppose we would have referred to them as v/D?
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2008, 11:27:03 AM »
Kelly,

When I asked a fellow member how you and Harbottle compared (I have played Harbottle's, but not your courses), he indicated that you were much more unconventional. Or perhaps we can say "wild". E.g.
...
I miss the old Lagoon Legend.  In its early years it was very much what could be called "Indiana Jones" golf - adventurous, daring and wild,...

Did Bruce influence your work any?

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2008, 01:56:53 PM »
Kelly,

Very interesting. Thanks!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2008, 02:13:52 PM »
KBM,

I've played a number of vonHagge/Devlin courses, some which I've liked alot (Crown Colony, Walden, old TPC at Woodlands), and more that I did not (Gleneagles, Northgate, Cliffs).  A few people at various clubs have opined that while vonHagge was the main force behind the design, Devlin brought in the player's perspective which somewhat ameliorated his partner's harsh, punitive orientation.

Northgate is the most difficult short course without gunch that I've ever played.  Playacar has got to be among the hardest resort courses in the planet.  I would bet that Devlin had little or nothing to do with these two courses.  Any idea who the design associates were?

      
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 02:15:37 PM by Lou_Duran »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2008, 03:07:05 PM »
KBM,

On defense of The Cliffs which I played three or four times, it was in financial trouble for a long time and the conditioning had not been good at least through 2005.  The course is incredibly attractive, and with more width and some clearing of the immediate surrounding natives, it could be very good.  As it was during my time in Texas, and with the clientele it attracted, it was not much fun to play.  I never saw the rattlers, but I was warned to stay away from the peripheries.   Apparently they are common in the rocky rustic terrain.   

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2008, 04:03:48 PM »
Your thoughts Mike H?

Hopefully, someone can bypass this link to directly show the aerial. 

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/franklin+tn/#a/maps/l:::Franklin:TN::US:35.924999:-86.868896:city:Williamson+County/m:hyb:12:35.959655:-86.79074:0::/io:0:::::f:EN:M:/e

The hole running north at the extreme western edge of the property is the par five 13th, a downhilll dogleg right with cross bunkers and an extremely shallow green. 

Immediately south of the 13th tee is the green to the drop shot par three 6th which plays from left to right.  At one time this hole was listed by Sports Illustrated as one of the top 18 holes in America.

Both holes are typical of this interesting layout - originally known as Crockett Springs given the old house that serves as the clubhouse was owned by Davey's kinfolks.  Interestingly, the course was routed based upon a new clubhouse that was never built near the now abandoned swimming pool and tennis courts. 

MIke
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 04:11:44 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2008, 12:24:01 AM »
Lou,
I worked at the cliffs overseeing the construction and growing it in and stayed on as director of golf four or five ,years. It was intially a spectacular layout and was rated number six in Texas during the years I was there by the Dallas morning news. It had great potential but like I have mentioned so often here, so many factors need to come together to really create something special and most of the time the architect has no control on all the factors and thats what happened to the Cliffs. New owners came in and made a killing on the real estate and the golf course was jsut a throne in their side. I went back and played a couple of years ago and hardly recognized it, it was a very sad eighteen holes and my play reflected my feelings. Also when I went back, I went back with architect eye´s and found the course extremely penal as were a lot of Bob´s work. I have a lot of repect, the utmost in fact for Mr. Von Hagge, he is a superb individual and super artistic and I have seen at least twenty or thirty of his courses. It seems to me like the style or Fad in the early 80´s was making them tougher and tougher (archi-torture era) and alot of that style was a result of the sucess and publicity of TPC. Even Nicklaus´s work refelcted that during the era but most moved on too other fads but Bob seemed to continue with these super chalenging layouts. Playacar is a perfect example, I know they spent the first couple of years trying to make if more player friendly.
Whats say you Kelly...do you agree?
Final comment because this was started about Devlin, I get from Kelly´conclusions and from my fractional dealings,,,Devlin was a Branding for Von Hagge when branding was in its first stages of evolution. Even though in today´s branding world of Tour Pro- Architect relationships, the tour professional has a small percentage of input, Devlin´s particpation was much-much smaller in comparrison.

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2008, 03:09:26 PM »
Kelly,
Good points and I agree with about 90 percent with what your saying, and even though there is no cook book method to design and the more completly different design styles are what makes golf a truely unigue sport and I love controversial holes and golf courses, the fact remains, that even though the Cliff´s was designed with two water bodies smaller then the size of two greens, every hole has areas that do not allow for a recovery shot. Sometimes you hit it just they you want, that chemical is relased to the brain and you go ahhhhh, but then you find it was not the perfect shot, it was off by two meters and hey wait a minute...stop...stop and final results...your f...ed and not only that but no chance of recovery. Penal on top of penal and it wears your butt out after a while. I still like to do these type of holes but very sparringly and we worked together we were both consienous of this. I can´t tell you how many times I heard at the Cliff´s, great course to play once but i couldn´t handle it every day, lost 23 golf balls, ect. Then on the other side of the coin, what we did together at Four Seasons Carmelo, with sixteen out of eighteen holes with water, I never heard a complaint in three years when I served as Director of Golf because we kept the majority of the water out of play and was non aggressive in my opinion. On the contrary in fact, all levels of handicap had fun. To me, thats what it is all about!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2008, 08:32:50 PM »
Hi Patrick,

Have you played any of those he did with Bruce Devlin?
If so what do you think?

I've played about a half a dozen of them in Florida.

It's hard to define how much of a golf course is attributable to each party and how much is a product of a collaboration between the two parties.

My guess is that Bob Von Hagge was responsible for the lion's share of the design work.
[/color]

Robert Von Hagge's body of work is quite extensive, in the U.S. and abroad, and some of his courses are very well regarded.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2008, 08:35:27 PM »
Just pulling your leg Randy.

There is no way Devlin should take an ounce of credit for Boca Rio.  I am certain one person on this site can attest to this if they choose to.

Bruce Devlin was not involved in the design of Boca Rio !

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2008, 09:10:05 PM »
Did Bruce influence your work any?

Garland,

There was no influence whatsoever.  99% per cent of my interaction in that office related to golf course architecture was through Bob.  And I would say at that time that was true for the entire office.  He was the architectural voice, influence, ruler, however you want to look at it. 

I don't know what your friend has seen but I think I am a conventional person influenced by whatever it is I am absorbing at the moment.  I think there are some sources of information unrelated to architecture but still important in terms of molding the mind that do remain constant, but probably too numerous to mention.  To name just a few I would say Emerson and Dylan I just can't shake.  There is much there particularly in Emerson that relates  to what we do in terms of how you see the world, and how you see the world influences how you see your work, I don't beleive in separations, to me work, leisure, religion, etc. it all feeds into one place between your ears.  Dylan has some interesting morsels as well, but I am a late comer to him so I have had a lot of catching up to do, but pretty much for the last 3 years he is all I listen to.  Probably the best thing to come out of that is my son has seen the light there as well.  although he is veering into the Beatles whom I have never liked, but I am definately in the minority there.  But nothing made me more proud than to hear him play Tamborine Man on his electric guiter and sing it all the way through...not bad for a 14 yr. old.  I sure Pete Seeger was itching to pick up an axe somewhere w/o knowing exactly why!! But I digress. 

Kelly, you should pick up the Gram Parsons / Emmy Lou Harris collaboration on "Grevious Angel/GP," Gram's remaining work, plus the Byrds and Flying Burrito Brothers albums where he wrote a lot of their really good stuff.  Gram died in 1973 at 28, way too young....

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2008, 09:18:29 PM »
Personal experience with the list on page 1:

Key Biscayne / Crandon Park  ;D

Ocean Reef  >:(

Glen Lakes  :-X

TPC Woodlands  ;D

Palm-Aire   :-X

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2008, 11:33:12 PM »
Thanks Bill I will check it out.  I can't find a Gram Parsons tribute disc I have, but I believe it was through Lucinda Williams, she is the best also.

Try to get the original "Grevious Angel," you will never hear Emmy Lou sounding as sweet as she does in those duets with Gram.  Wonderful stuff.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2008, 11:18:48 AM »
Just pulling your leg Randy.

There is no way Devlin should take an ounce of credit for Boca Rio.  I am certain one person on this site can attest to this if they choose to.

Bruce Devlin was not involved in the design of Boca Rio !

I thought Boca Rio, was now a Patrick Mucci design.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2008, 12:33:31 PM »
"Lou said Northgate is difficult, but having played it many times I would not say it is over the top as may be construed from comments here.  There are some very exciting holes on that course and I enjoyed playing it, it could be difficult at times but it could be had at other times.  Some enjoy the challenge, the battle, the matching of wits against the course, which with that comes a much higher level of acceptance of the playing course, and others want it handed to them, they don't see golf as a measure of their abilites as a sportsman, and this attitude is probably something they carried all their lives.  Are you there to play the sport or are you just there because everybody else is doing it and you feel some obligation to conform.  Those they complain about such courses were probably kids like the one on my son's baseball team.  Yesterday I helped out by keeping the book.  I was sitting next to this kid on the bench that clearly plays because of mom and dad.  Coach asks him if he wants to play 3rd base.  The kid asks why.  I told him if he has to ask why then he might as well get comfortable on the bench to which the coach agreed and little B. sat for the game.  you have to have a certain mind set about the sport, a desire to play no matter what the circumstances, and not just be there because of some other reason unrelated to playing the sport.  When a person plays a course once or twice and then complains about the difficulty or makes claims about the viability of the course due to the design, they should be sent to the bench where they belong."  Kelly Blake Moran

KBM,

Man, aren't you a harsh one!  For simply opining that I didn't like Northgate alot and that it was the most difficult short course without gunch I've ever played you relegate me to the bench?  I am sure glad you were keeping the book and not coaching the kids!  ;)  As to your comment regarding the attitude of entitlement vs. the virtues of struggle and challenge, thanks for making me the poster child of the former and you of the latter.  I am grateful to God, my family, and this wonderful country for everything that has been "handed" me.

I am glad you like Northgate.  I am not sure how many times I've played it, maybe four or five times, but certainly enough to know it is not my cup of tea.  It is a penal course which does reward good shots for the most part and severely punishes poor ones nearly always.  Personally, I prefer the MacKenzie philosophy which posits that a course should provide the opportunity for redemption after an imperfect effort.  For me, the recovery shot is one of the most rewarding and memorable.  Northgate, for the most part, does not allow the sporting chance of making up for a poor stroke with a subsequent outstanding one.

By the way, one of my better friends was a club champion there six or seven times, once shooting a 64 in the tournament and winning by nearly 15-20 strokes.  He would agree with you that playing it repeatedly makes it easier and that it can be had.  He may not say that it is "over the top", but he would opine that it is penal and not a course that's alot of fun to play.  We typically played elsewhere when I visited though the guest fees were certainly moderate.
 
 
 
 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2008, 01:52:24 PM »
KBM,

Actually, my friend was not monied and for that reason, as well as convenience, he was a member of Northgate.  He would have prefered to be a member at Champions, but the initiation fee at that time was substantial.  One of the good things about Houston is that if you're a really good player like this guy, you get to play all the top courses throughout the city in tournaments and informal daily events for substantially less than normal green fees, typically cart fees and seed money for the pot.  There is something going on competitively nearly every week.

Northgate suffers from all the limitations you note on top of being on a relatively small site within a residential community.  I never suggested that vonHagge is a bad architect, only that I didn't care for some of his courses with Northgate being one of them.  My friend at Northgate was on the green advisory board and has met the architect numerous times.  He speaks well of him.  I think it was my friend who told me that vonHagge was big on the look of the course and paid particular attention to light and shadows.  His extensive mounding at Northgate cast some really neat shadows early and late in the day.   

Sam Morrow

Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2008, 09:42:43 PM »
I like Northgate a great deal and am fond of the Old Course at Raveneaux.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2008, 11:51:23 PM »
I've played Tucson National (Catalina) and liked the course overall, although there was some goofy mounding around some of the green sites.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Eric Pevoto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Courses by Bruce Devlin
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2008, 12:10:31 AM »
I played a lot of junior golf on the Houston area courses listed.  Played a couple of Houston Open qualifiers at Walden/Conroe (over twenty years ago) and of the bunch, it stands out. 
While my appreciation for gca has grown over the years, my recollection is Walden, though a little tree hemmed, is/was not as severe as some of the others.  Was Ron Prichard involved there?

p.s.  What was then a pretty stout forced carry late in the back nine, (16 or 17?) must be a lot easier now!
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

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