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Matt_Ward

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2008, 05:37:46 PM »
John:

Aargh ...

W-R-O-N-G-O

Try again ...

Sam Morrow

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2008, 05:37:58 PM »
If Moe Norman is on the list I am going to puke blood on a Merion scorecard.

I saw Moe give a lesson once and it was pretty funny.  He calls the club a 'dummy' and the ball a 'dumb guy' and he just kept repeating the same message "You put this dummy on that dumb guy and it goes over there".  His student asked about his grip and Moe would repeat the "dummy" thing over again.  The student asked about the banana slice he just hit and it was met with the dummy thing.

I think Moe knew a lot about hitting a ball but he was never able to convey it to others.

- Peter




If he was such a great ballstriker it wouldn't matter how much his putting sucked.

Are you saying Moe was not a great ball striker?

 

I think he was a great ballstriker but I think he's is given to much credit. If he hit it stiff every hole he could be a crappy putter and still shoot nothing everytime.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2008, 10:09:20 PM »
Merrill Hiserman





... and yes, I know Matt's reply ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #78 on: June 04, 2008, 10:06:52 AM »
Eddie Merrins.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #79 on: June 04, 2008, 11:08:25 AM »
Matt,


Does Bob Rotella count?

Bob

John Goodman

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #80 on: June 04, 2008, 12:04:26 PM »
Scott Sackett
Bill Eschenbrenner
Roger Warren
Chuck Cook
William Heald

Please, turn it over, Matt -

Matt_Ward

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #81 on: June 04, 2008, 12:40:50 PM »
Bob Huntley:

CONGRATS INDEED ARE IN ORDER ...

DR. BOB ROTELLA IS THE FINAL ANSWER

Well done sir ! ! !

Jim Nugent

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #82 on: June 04, 2008, 12:50:50 PM »
Are you saying Moe was not a great ball striker?
 

I think he was a great ballstriker but I think he's is given to much credit. If he hit it stiff every hole he could be a crappy putter and still shoot nothing everytime.

Two Moe stories that, if true, may have some bearing on this.  First story: he has just hit the 72nd green of a tournament in regulation.  Double bogey wins for him.  He intentionally putts off the green and into a bunker.  He then gets up and down in two, to win the tournament.  When asked why he did this, he said he wanted to see if he could handle the pressure.

Story number two: Moe comes to the last hole of an exhibition needing par to set the course record.  It is his first time on the course.  He is told the hole should be driver, nine iron for him.  So he tees off with his 9 iron, hits driver off the fairway to the green, two putts for the course record.   

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #83 on: June 04, 2008, 01:03:51 PM »
Macdonald Smith
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Matt_Ward

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #84 on: June 04, 2008, 01:07:11 PM »
Ralph, et al:

Hello out there -- all of the correct answers have been provided.

No more guesses are needed.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #85 on: June 04, 2008, 01:25:30 PM »
Maybe some teachers not in the classical sense

Dave Pelz or Bob Rotella

They probably could have stopped a while ago.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #86 on: June 04, 2008, 01:50:59 PM »
Ralph, et al:

Hello out there -- all of the correct answers have been provided.

No more guesses are needed.

Can you reproduce the full list in one post for us?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Matt_Ward

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #87 on: June 04, 2008, 04:44:51 PM »
Here they are in alpha order ...

Percy Boomer
Jim Flick
Jack Grout
Ben Hogan
Ernest Jones
David Leadbetter
Harvey Penick
Dr. Bob Rotella
Paul Runyan
Bob Toski

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #88 on: June 04, 2008, 05:26:36 PM »
An eclectic group, to say the least.

I remember reading one time that someone questioned Grout's credentials, saying he couldn't have stopped Jack from winning 18 majors. I always thought Hank Haney took that as a personal challenge.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Sam Morrow

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2008, 03:31:50 PM »
Are you saying Moe was not a great ball striker?
 

I think he was a great ballstriker but I think he's is given to much credit. If he hit it stiff every hole he could be a crappy putter and still shoot nothing everytime.

Two Moe stories that, if true, may have some bearing on this.  First story: he has just hit the 72nd green of a tournament in regulation.  Double bogey wins for him.  He intentionally putts off the green and into a bunker.  He then gets up and down in two, to win the tournament.  When asked why he did this, he said he wanted to see if he could handle the pressure.

Story number two: Moe comes to the last hole of an exhibition needing par to set the course record.  It is his first time on the course.  He is told the hole should be driver, nine iron for him.  So he tees off with his 9 iron, hits driver off the fairway to the green, two putts for the course record.   

Nice stories if true but how does that make him a great teacher?

Casey Wade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2008, 04:55:02 PM »
Are you saying Moe was not a great ball striker?
 

I think he was a great ballstriker but I think he's is given to much credit. If he hit it stiff every hole he could be a crappy putter and still shoot nothing everytime.

Two Moe stories that, if true, may have some bearing on this.  First story: he has just hit the 72nd green of a tournament in regulation.  Double bogey wins for him.  He intentionally putts off the green and into a bunker.  He then gets up and down in two, to win the tournament.  When asked why he did this, he said he wanted to see if he could handle the pressure.

Story number two: Moe comes to the last hole of an exhibition needing par to set the course record.  It is his first time on the course.  He is told the hole should be driver, nine iron for him.  So he tees off with his 9 iron, hits driver off the fairway to the green, two putts for the course record.   

Nice stories if true but how does that make him a great teacher?

Part of being a great teacher is learning to communicate.  Moe could not communicate well, so his name should not be on the list IMO. 

In Jackie Burke's book, he states that all great teachers can say the same thing 3 different ways and a student will be able to understand at least one of them.
Some people are alive simply because it is illegal to shoot them.

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2008, 01:04:49 AM »
Are you saying Moe was not a great ball striker?
 

I think he was a great ballstriker but I think he's is given to much credit. If he hit it stiff every hole he could be a crappy putter and still shoot nothing everytime.

Two Moe stories that, if true, may have some bearing on this.  First story: he has just hit the 72nd green of a tournament in regulation.  Double bogey wins for him.  He intentionally putts off the green and into a bunker.  He then gets up and down in two, to win the tournament.  When asked why he did this, he said he wanted to see if he could handle the pressure.

Story number two: Moe comes to the last hole of an exhibition needing par to set the course record.  It is his first time on the course.  He is told the hole should be driver, nine iron for him.  So he tees off with his 9 iron, hits driver off the fairway to the green, two putts for the course record.   
Chuck Norris wears Moe Norman undergarments!   Those are two great stories indeed.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2008, 01:31:59 AM »
Why Ballard?
In the 80's Golf Digest assembled all the "great" teachers to analyze the swing of then Jerry Pate. The then "hot player".
They gave him an overall score of 95 out of 100.

Contrary to the 95 rating of the other "greats"...
Ballard, after Pate won the US Open predicted what would happen.
"You won't find the ball after you're 30... once the gifts of youth had passed."
Why?
No pivot (head still), Reverse "C" (head still), Left arm as stiff as a iron bar. All contrary to what great ballstrikers do... and by great ballstrikers he meant guys who's swings lasted decade after decade.
He was smack on the money, and years later Pate admitted how far teaching had progressed in a Golf World article. That his swing, rated "95" by others was tragically flawed.
Ballard... way ahead of the curve.

Ballard knew what others didn't and made it easily understandable.

Ballard's video with him standing in front of the Doral sign should be mandatory for all PGA members to memorize. He challenged the PGA's instruction manual as being ass backward.
That McLean paid to go through the Ballard Workshop at least 5 times speaks volumes.

I agree with Jim Colbert that Leadbetter took Ballard's stuff and made it more complicated.
Colbert also went to a number of "greats" in the 70's and they gave bandaids. Never did he find something solid to create a foundation upon until he met Ballard. Ballard's Common Denominators and Myths are an invaluable package. Clarity, brevity... and common sense.

Saw a video of Team Volvo (Parnevik, Stomberg, Rystrom) in around 1986 where they visited Leadbetter and Ballard. Back then Ballard was miles ahead of Leadbetter... all you had to do was watch the video.

George Knudson was pretty good too (his video is excellent), but Ballard was in a league of his own.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 01:43:34 AM by Tony Ristola »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2008, 01:36:55 AM »
Quote
In Jackie Burke's book, he states that all great teachers can say the same thing 3 different ways and a student will be able to understand at least one of them.
100% agree. People learn by words, others by example, others through video, some by physically helping them understand... and one person can use all of them for different parts of the learning process. You're trying to get them to have the "aha" moment... "Now I get it."

Jim Nugent

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2008, 03:42:43 AM »
Here they are in alpha order ...

Percy Boomer
Jim Flick
Jack Grout
Ben Hogan
Ernest Jones
David Leadbetter
Harvey Penick
Dr. Bob Rotella
Paul Runyan
Bob Toski


Matt, do they tell why they think these men are the greatest teachers?  Any list of honorable mentions? 

Matt_Ward

Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2008, 09:43:28 AM »
Jim N:

The answer is no.

There was no mentioning of honorable mention -- just a short sentence or two following their listing which I mentioned on a few of them earlier in this thread.

No doubt when you ony list ten (10) there will be a few that are quite good and were simply left on the cutting room floor.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ...
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2008, 10:43:05 AM »
Why Ballard?


I agree with Jim Colbert that Leadbetter took Ballard's stuff and made it more complicated.

Saw a video of Team Volvo (Parnevik, Stomberg, Rystrom) in around 1986 where they visited Leadbetter and Ballard. Back then Ballard was miles ahead of Leadbetter... all you had to do was watch the video.

George Knudson was pretty good too (his video is excellent), but Ballard was in a league of his own.




Tony,

I would hazard a guess that David Leadbetter learned more from Phil Ritson than anyone, including Ballard.

As for George Knudson I played a round of golf with him at Peble Beach and he vowed he would hit every shot in the round a different way...and he did. The greatest shotmaker I ever saw.


Bob

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Top Ten Teachers of the 20th Century ... New
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2008, 11:38:20 AM »
Ben Hogan????

How many lessons did Ben Hogan give? ???

His book (like so many done by players) tells how a golf swing should be based on how his (Hogan's in this case) swing feels. Case in point, if Hogan turned his hips to the left during his forward swing like he writes in his book...he would have never made this list. Because no one would have cared what he had to say because he would have been a mediocre player at best.

Likewise, Nicklaus always talked about talking the club straight back and square to the line as long as possible. But his clubface was a little shut for the most part in his backswing. He worked it open in his downswing to produce a fade...like so many others do(e.g. Stadler, K.Green, Azinger). Though it was shut, he didn't feel it to be shut, and so he wrote that it was square.

Having Hogan on this list is like having Micheangelo on a list of greatest art teachers.

Teaching is getting the most out of your students, no matter the subject, and no matter the student. It is not simply being great at something and telling others how you did it. That's more akin to preaching.

BTW, to not have Claude Harmon on this list is a travesty. He could be found on the lesson tee, and often...teaching not only his assistants to be better players (see Dave Marr), his sons to be better players (Butch was on tour for a few years), but club members of all abilities.

And he survived a coup attempt on the King of Morocco while teaching him!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 11:44:40 AM by Andy Hodson »

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