[John Moore II]

There are a few of us PGA Professionals on this site, so this question is directed at all of us, and any of the rest who may be able to affect pace of play on courses..

--Why have we, as professionals come to accept slow play on our courses? Is it so much to require our guests to play golf in 4 hours?

--Why do we feel like we can't tell people to pick up the pace when they are falling behind??

--Does the design of modern courses really affect pace of play? I feel like it does not, at least not to the point that many people think it does.

Please discuss.....

[Mike_Cirba]

J. Kenneth Moore,

Two weekends ago I walked 18 holes playing solo in the rain at Monroe Golf Club (NY) in 2.5 hours.

This past weekend I played Bedford Springs (PA) riding a mandatory cart, again playing solo, in about 3 hours.

In neither case did I feel that I was rushing.   I would hit a shot...go find it...assess the options...and hit another shot.

I will never for the life of me understand why any round needs to take longer than 4 hours, and most of it is simple understanding of etiquette and simple common courtesy.

I must say that golf on television, where highly-skilled contestants are competing for millions of dollars in prize money, is about the absolute worst example for the rest of us in how to play the game.   

I used to watch faithfully almost every weekend.   This year, I have watched less than 4 hours of professional golf total.

[Matt Varney]

Mike,

I agree with you on pace of play and I think I have a good idea why it takes so long today.  These big ass drivers that allows everyone to bomb it off the tee.  All these new golfers that have come into the game since Tiger made an impact are just average.  This is the catch with these hot drivers everybody hits it long so they all want to play the tips.

I play tips and I have been playing for almost 25 years.  Back when I was learning to play golf and get better I would never go to the back tees until I could play from them with consistency.  I see this every week when a foresome show up for their tee time step up to the back tee, flip the tee to see who starts off and then watch 3 of the 4 hit it in the trees or 175 yards in the rough playing from 425 yards. 

This shit continues hole after hole for 5+ hours while they laugh and the guy hitting gets pissed off after every bad shot because he can't hit the shots from these distances.  The only way we will ever change this is to force players to play from proper tees based on their skill level to play the course.  None of these new players look at slope ratings anymore they just want to play the tips from 7000+ yards.  They lose 10 balls and shoot 114 but hey they played golf right and spent the money.  I would love to see some USGA handicap data that shows over the last 30 years with all the changes in technology and new players coming into the game the number of single digit handicaps has barely increased over the years.

 

[Dean Stokes]

There are a few of us PGA Professionals on this site, so this question is directed at all of us, and any of the rest who may be able to affect pace of play on courses..

--Why have we, as professionals come to accept slow play on our courses? Is it so much to require our guests to play golf in 4 hours?

--Why do we feel like we can't tell people to pick up the pace when they are falling behind??

--Does the design of modern courses really affect pace of play? I feel like it does not, at least not to the point that many people think it does.

Please discuss.....

J, your first two questions offer one of the answers as to why I served 3 years as an assistant at a nice private Country Club then got out of the business.
We are not paid nearly enough money to police a golf course where the paying membership are even nearly going to listen to you. Most pros do not have the backing of the GM and the golf committees to uphold club policies to keep dress code and etiquette up to standard.
Since leaving the pro ranks I have spent several seasons caddying at 'High end' private clubs that pay there golf pros correctly and set rules to be adhered to. If the pro tells you something you do it because it's the rules.
For most of the golf pros I have met - you are fighting an uphill battle that will only cost you your job when the member you told to speed up gets on the golf committee

PS you have also to compromise trying to build a lesson base( to make a living) while telling guys to speed up and put their hat the right way round and tuck their shirt in - it doesn't work! PPS yes this was at a very nice Country  club!

[Adam Clayman]

There is no way equipment or architecture affects the slow pace of people. The reason Pros and owners allow slow play, is they don't want to piss off the customer.

The only effective way of dealing with it is through a combination of psychology and non-verbal communication. Psychology begins behind the counter by  informing EVERY golfer what's expected of them. The non verbal communication is accomplished using something similar to a flag system that the marshals cart flies which informs the group of their pace. Green=fine Yellow=caution Black means you have to fill the void you as a group have created.

Since golf is not an exact science and the rules allow 5 minutes to look for lost balls, a group that does fall behind can and should make it up.

Maintenance practices are a bigger factor than either equipment and/or architecture.

[Doug Siebert]

We've got to quit fooling ourselves.  There isn't one cause of slow play that we can address and cure the problem.  If every golfer played from the correct tees I don't think we could even measure the difference in how long it took to play.  If every golfer was forced to choose their club and get ready for their shot while another guy in their group was playing that wouldn't make any difference either.

Sure, there are some golfers for whom one cause is their primary reason for slow play, but there are many golfers who have multiple symptoms and curing one would only make them less slow, and others who didn't have that problem would remain just as slow and keep on holding everyone up.  It'd be great if it was just one problem, then we could fix that problem and slow play would no longer be an issue.  But if it were that simple it would be obvious what that one problem is and we would have fixed it a long time ago!

One related issue that's often overlooked is that no one teaches the average golfer all the things we take for granted as far as how to play.  By 'play' I don't mean how to grip the club or swing, but how to know where you should try to be at a given time and what you should be doing.  Wouldn't it be nice if along with how to hit the ball we taught people how to play more efficiently and reduce the wasted time where no one in the group is actually playing a golf shot?  That is, after all, the real goal, not simply playing "faster".

I think there's a learning effect going on, where those who are learning the game play with people who never learned how to play more efficiently, so its "monkey see, monkey do".  Especially if they play on a slow course.  Think about how your play differs when you are stuck behind a bunch of slow groups on a packed course.  I admit, I play slower then.  I'll take extra time to line up my putts, I'll take a few extra practice swings on chips and pitches around the green.  Those who ride might sit in the cart while the other guy hits instead of grabbing clubs and walking over to their ball to be ready to play more quickly.  You know, one of those days where someone inevitably says "we're not going anywhere anyway" as an excuse for why they are screwing around.

For the beginning golfer, he's watching that stuff and "learning" too, but he's learning lessons in how to play slow that may stick with him even when there isn't a slow group in front, and next thing you know he's part of a foursome that's holding up the rest of the course on a day when they've got two holes clear in front of them by the time they make the turn.

[Matt Varney]

Adam,

See I don't agree that equipment technology has not slowed down play.  You remember back in the day when a driver was wood and the size of hybrid now?  Well that guy that didn't want to play golf with you back 20 years ago in high school now owns a full set of titanium woods, hybrids and huge cavity back irons that are like hitting the golf ball with a damn tennis racket.  

I like the idea of the flag system and I have never seen this used before on a course.  I really believe that the guy at the counter needs to make it clear like Bethpage Black that this course if very difficult and challenging from the back tees.  All these guys today use the equipment as the equalizer to play all the way back so they play the full course.  What I have seen over the years is that many of these guys at best are 18+ handicap players that are not consistent at all they need to practice.  They hit 2 really good drives in a round and maybe 4 iron shots and the rest of the time they are chipping 3 times and 3 putting almost every green.  They have the game to play the white tees yet they want a challenge and they feel the driver and the Pro V1 will compensate for the added length from these back tees.  

When I play 9 holes during the week with buddies I play with them from the white tees and I can play almost every par 4 or par 5 with a driver or 3 wood and a wedge or swedge.  I really only need 6 clubs to play and this includes the putter.  The real story in this is that my buddies enjoy themselves and so do I as well when we are all having fun not losing balls and swinging for the fences because they are not playing 440 yard par 4's - they are playing the golf course at a distance they can handle and the experience is much better and we play in about 1 hour 45 minutes maybe 2 hours max.

[Jason McNamara]

Agree with almost everything mentioned... though in a tough economy and with a glut of courses I have no idea how most courses would be more inclined to herd people along, tell groups to skip a hole, etc.  However, in a big enough metro area notorious for slow golf, I could see one course or another gaining a loyal following by being utterly ruthless about 4 hour weekend rounds.  (Sad that a 4-hour public round should be a niche market, but there you go.)

Plus there's of course the 7-minute tee times and all the other things typically mentioned.  (Bill Yates, if you are out there, do you have info on how much the avg design can add to the time - as opposed to tee time spacing, etc?)

But let me mention another idea... one that may have been mentioned before but I don't recall seeing here.  Shivas may have touched on it before in some of his posts.

What about the possibility that some guys are *not* interested in a quicker round?  (I say guys because most of the women I know are fast - if not very fast - golfers.)  In other words, if guys get a hall pass, they can't play golf for 3.5 hours and then stay and drink beer with the gang for 2 hours afterwards, but they -can- play golf for 5.5 hours (and drink beer all the while).  The idea being that "I'll come home as soon as we finish the round."

Say that Category A is what's typically referred to as avid golfers.  Or call them true golfers, if you think the "avid" category is slightly different.  These are people who play golf in order to play golf.  That's different from those who play golf to get out of the house and maybe have a couple beers - Category B.

People from Category A are probably
1. more likely to know about ready play, etc.
2. more likely to join a club (and play more rounds), and
3. not motivated to extend a round beyond its intrinsic time
      (which varies accdg to the person and course layout, but we can agree it is somewhere south of 4 hours)

For those solely in Category B, playing golf may be secondary.  It's about Happy Gilmore impersonations, flirting with the cart girl, and not doing yard work.  So why would they be in a hurry to finish?  Category A says a round should never take longer than it should; Category B says it should never finish sooner than it has to.  And it just takes one group to muck up the schedule.

Approaches to speeding up play assume that everyone on the course wants a faster round, and that's tough enough to achieve.  But what if that assumption is wrong?  What of some golfers don't care about faster rounds, and a few actually like the idea of an extra hour on the course?

[Steve Kline]

I agree with Adam that the answer is money. There are way too many options for people to pay so course owners don't want to offend any customers. Plus, most"nice" courses are so expensive now the owner is really afraid of offending someone.

In the last 20 years I have only played one place that handled slow play appropriately - TPC Sawgrass. It was almost 20 years ago that I played there. On the 10th green or the 11th tee, the ranger came up to us and informed us that a group about two spots ahead of us was playing slow and that they were taking care of the problem. Mind you, I didn't even really think it was that slow compared to other places I played. On the 12th tee the ranger came up to us again. He told us that the offending group had not picked up their pace of play and were pulled to the side of the hole so the groups behind could play through. The offending group would be allowed back on the course when there was an opening in the flow of groups.

Now if every course handled pace of play like that there would be no problems.

[George Blunt]

Jason,

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  Category A and B describes it perfectly. 

I played most of my golf in Australia, where everyone must play like category A or a fist fight breaks out.  Now I am in India, where golf is a prestige sport, and it is all Category B.  So the longer we spend standing under a 105 degree sun shouting at caddies and making calls on cell phones the richer and more important we must be.

I think the problems occur when A meets B - golf in Australia takes 3 1/2 hours for a 3 ball and 4 for a four ball and everyone is happy.  Golf in India takes 5-5 1/2 hours for a four ball and everyone (except me) is happy.

I am not sure how to solve the problem, as I have never met a self confessed "slow player".  I think the starting point may be the analysis of your customer profile, with changes made that either suit the current customer, or drive him away in preference of a different kind of customer. 

But while you have A and B on the course, it is going to be traumatic for someone.

Cheers,

George

[Chris Garrett]

We can get complicated and analyze every last bit of info and data regarding slow play.  The truth is, slow play is prevalent in cultures which have promoted the abundant use of golf carts.  Golf carts have made golfers "lazy."  Golfers suddenly are given the opportunity to sit and relax and to expect to be driven to their ball.  So few golfers today understand how to play golf while in a golf cart.  The use of carts paths all too often pulls those golfers away from the playing area. 

It has really become a vicious cycle as fewer and fewer folks grow up or learn the game while walking.  The idea of walking a golf course is virtually a foreign idea at some clubs and courses. 

As a product of the Penn State PGM program, I had the privilege of interning at a Golf Digest top 50 private club that restricted golf cart use to those over 60 while enforcing 4 hour rounds.  In fact, we double teed them on the weekend, beginning at 8am, turning at 10am, and starting normal tee times off the first at noon.  The members essentially policed themselves, although we did have one course adviser to assist. 

After graduation, I worked at a private (70% corporate) TPC club that actually restricted walking.  It should come as no surprise that we struggled to keep rounds under 5 hours both during the week and on the weekend. 

[Dan Herrmann]

Chris - walking is the answer if you're fit enough to do it.  My course has some environmentally-forced long green - tee walks, some big hills, and covers about 5.5 miles walking.  My wife and I can walk it in 3.5 hours if nobody's in front of us.

Sure - playing at that speed requires a brisk walk and the ability to hit the ball on the green fairly quickly.  But it's great fun.

PS - I'd love to see the USGA hit somebody with penalty strokes in the US Open for slow play.

[Rick Sides]

I think there are a couple things that slow golf or expedite it.  I agree with the fact that a lot of guys let pride get in the way and end up playing tees at 6500 yards or the tips when they should be at 6000 yards,  Distance will always add time to a mid or high handicap golfer.  Another thing I notice is some public courses over book tee times and then jam up play.  Some courses also have rangers watching and monitoring play and other courses have none!  This can make a world of difference.

[John Pflum]

--Does the design of modern courses really affect pace of play? I feel like it does not, at least not to the point that many people think it does.

Please discuss.....

IMO, some of the marathon-esque distances between greens and tees (especially on housing develoment courses) definitely affect the length of the round.  Carts or not -- if it takes an extra 90 seconds to get from one green to the next tee you are looking at an extra 30 minutes added on to the round.  

[Chris Garrett]

Dan,

My guess is that if golf carts weren't the main source of getting around the course, you would not have those long green-tee walks and uphill climbs because either 1) the architect would have been mindful of walkers and their needs, thus limiting those features or 2) if they could not have worked around the features, then the property would have deemed unsuitable for a golf course.

Irregardless, I was aiming more at the culture at clubs (or societies) where carts are prevalent and clubs (or societies) where walking is prevalent.  In my opinion, the mindset is significantly different at the two.

[John Burzynski]

There are a few of us PGA Professionals on this site, so this question is directed at all of us, and any of the rest who may be able to affect pace of play on courses..

--Why have we, as professionals come to accept slow play on our courses? Is it so much to require our guests to play golf in 4 hours?

--Why do we feel like we can't tell people to pick up the pace when they are falling behind??

--Does the design of modern courses really affect pace of play? I feel like it does not, at least not to the point that many people think it does.

Please discuss.....

I do know one thing, there seems to be an ever growing sense of entitlement by golfers on golf courses, and attitude of "I paid my money and I will play as slowly or quickly as I want."  With the green fees going up up up at most courses, in many places in excess of $50 $100 or more, I can't say sometimes that I blame the average golfer for having a sense of indignance...that's a lot of cash for a few hours of entertainment.

It doesn't make that attitude correct or right, just prevalent.

[Greg Chambers]

Maybe if golfers didn't have to bay $5/ball they would be more inclined to just lose the ball rather than spending 10-20 minutes looking for it, only to lose it in the end anyway.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt V.- I'm a bit too entrenched to give up my opinion.    My heart knows it's the inconsideration of those who follow, that causes slow play. Sure, one shot or two shots could be blamed, but not for the entire round.
All other potential causes can be overcome with either effort or apathy.

Stroke play mentality needs to be mentioned as a contributing factor. 

[Dean Stokes]

There are a few of us PGA Professionals on this site, so this question is directed at all of us, and any of the rest who may be able to affect pace of play on courses..

--Why have we, as professionals come to accept slow play on our courses? Is it so much to require our guests to play golf in 4 hours?

--Why do we feel like we can't tell people to pick up the pace when they are falling behind??

--Does the design of modern courses really affect pace of play? I feel like it does not, at least not to the point that many people think it does.

Please discuss.....

I do know one thing, there seems to be an ever growing sense of entitlement by golfers on golf courses, and attitude of "I paid my money and I will play as slowly or quickly as I want."  With the green fees going up up up at most courses, in many places in excess of $50 $100 or more, I can't say sometimes that I blame the average golfer for having a sense of indignance...that's a lot of cash for a few hours of entertainment.

It doesn't make that attitude correct or right, just prevalent.

Here here. This also goes back to JB Holmes comments last week about slow play. "we're playing for $1 milliion and we'll play as slow as we we want". ( or something on those lines) - not if you get a 2 shot penalty Jonboy.......

[Jim_Kennedy]

J.K.Moore,

I have never experienced a slow round at any private club in the northeast.

That is never, ever.

Maybe it's just a New England (and upstate NY) thing.

[John Kavanaugh]

J. Kenneth Moore,

Two weekends ago I walked 18 holes playing solo in the rain at Monroe Golf Club (NY) in 2.5 hours.

This past weekend I played Bedford Springs (PA) riding a mandatory cart, again playing solo, in about 3 hours.

In neither case did I feel that I was rushing.   I would hit a shot...go find it...assess the options...and hit another shot.

I will never for the life of me understand why any round needs to take longer than 4 hours, and most of it is simple understanding of etiquette and simple common courtesy.

I must say that golf on television, where highly-skilled contestants are competing for millions of dollars in prize money, is about the absolute worst example for the rest of us in how to play the game.   

I used to watch faithfully almost every weekend.   This year, I have watched less than 4 hours of professional golf total.

Who in the world plays solo on the weekends?  Two and a half to four hours solo is no faster than four and a half hours in a foresome.  You talk about etiquette and simple common courtesy...it seems to me that they both slow the game down as opposed to speeding it up, for example:  Acting interested in your friends stupid stories.  Tending the pin.  Repairing extra ball marks.  Fixing divots which can add up to 500 yds per round.  Not asking to be given every putt.  Going out of your way to watch your opponents shots and helping find their ball.  Hitting when it is your turn.  Staying out of your opponents way the and way of others on the course.  Not hitting into groups in front of you which includes not landing balls within 30 yds of a green where people are putting.  In other words, act in a manner that does not lead to you playing solo on weekends.

[JohnV]

The USGA requires that an employee can NOT be the chairman of the Handicap Committee.  One reason for this is so that actions taken to reduce a players handicap will not be held back for fear of job action being taken.

In my opinion, the professional at a private club should also not be in charge of coming up with a pace of play policy or having to be the bad guy when it comes to enforcing it.  The Golf Committee should determine a reasonable pace of play policy and the professional should monitor play and report the frequent violators to them for action.

At most clubs where I've been a member, peer pressure was the predominant way that slow play was dealt with.  If a group was slow, the group or groups behind it would come in after the round and say something to them.  After hearing this a few times, the problem players would play faster. 

If it was one player in your group, you might say something or figure out ways to show them how to play faster.  I know one player who was pretty slow when he first started playing with my group and over the course of a couple of years, we got to the point where he was the first one to complain about how slow the group in front was.

On public courses things are different, but the course setup and other factors such as tee time intervals can play a big difference.  At Ghost Creek, just starting rounds on #10 rather than #1 resulted in about a 20-30 minute savings in average pace of play.  The back nine had less trouble so that players got off to a better start and played faster which tended to carry over to the front nine.

[Mike_Cirba]

Who in the world plays solo on the weekends?  Two and a half to four hours solo is no faster than four and a half hours in a foresome.  You talk about etiquette and simple common courtesy...it seems to me that they both slow the game down as opposed to speeding it up, for example:  Acting interested in your friends stupid stories.  Tending the pin.  Repairing extra ball marks.  Fixing divots which can add up to 500 yds per round.  Not asking to be given every putt.  Going out of your way to watch your opponents shots and helping find their ball.  Hitting when it is your turn.  Staying out of your opponents way the and way of others on the course.  Not hitting into groups in front of you which includes not landing balls within 30 yds of a green where people are putting.  In other words, act in a manner that does not lead to you playing solo on weekends.

John,

That's really rude and uncalled for, but sadly, I expected it from you when I posted last night. 

In both cases there was virtually no one else playing.   In the first case, it was steadily raining and about 50 degrees.  I was there from out of town and it was my only opportunity to see the course.

In the second case, I played mid-afternoon on Memorial Day, and sadly, there were about 3 other groups on the course, and no one came after me.   I drove 3 hours each way to play.   The green fee is significant which might be why the play was slight, but the course is deserving.

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't see the rudeness in pointing out that one cure to the perils of slow play is to make sure you have a foresome and enjoy the time spent on the course.  When you play alone do you take the time to remove the pin when you putt...I know I don't.

One problem created by singles and speedsters is that they don't know how to play through another group which leads to slow players giving up and not letting anyone through.  When going though you should never putt out or take more than bogey on the hole.  On the first flubbed shot, pick up, say thank you and move on.

[Richard Choi]

I think you guys are making this problem MUCH more complicated than it needs to be (or is in real life).

A round of golf is slow because everyone plays on the same course following each other. And when you have 100+ groups on the course throughout the day, all it takes is one group to slow everybody down. How slow it gets just depends on how crowded that course is.

This is exactly like how traffic works on highways during rush hours. Even though 99% of the people want to drive at or above speed limit, all it takes is one guy to jam on the brake to cause a cascade of traffic lockup behind him. And everything comes to a standstill if there are too many cars on the highway.

And just like highways, there are only two ways to address this problem:

1. Space apart the groups so that you have enough buffer to absolve the differences in pace of play.
2. Whenever a blockage occurs, you need to remove it as soon as you can.

I agree with the OP that very very few golf clubs do either of above well.

It is foolish to think that just by better educating people you can improve the pace. While it may lessen the chance that a blockage may occur, as I have said before, all it takes is one group to be slow for everyone to suffer.

If you are really serious about pace of play, only people who can do anything about it are the golf course owners/managers who are willing to enforce the pace of play. PGA Tour has indicated that that are unwilling to enforce it, which is why we have these tour events where 5 to 6 hour rounds are the norm.

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