[Patrick_Mucci]

Are Green Chairman influenced by their personal experiences on the golf course ?

Are they influenced by the personal experiences of their friends ?

Are the following subject to modification due to personal experiences and agendas, first hand or related ?

Hole locations
Tee locations
Height of rough
Placement of rough
Buffers of rough

1  Should a Green Chairman who prepares the golf course to suit either his
    agenda or his friend's agenda be removed ?

2  Should a Green Chairman who prepares the golf course to suit his
    membership's agenda be removed ?

3  Should a Green Chairman who prepares the golf course to be "more fair"
    be removed ?

4  What's the difference between # 1, # 2 and # 3 ?

[Dave_Miller]

Are Green Chairman influenced by their personal experiences on the golf course ?

Are they influenced by the personal experiences of their friends ?

Are the following subject to modification due to personal experiences and agendas, first hand or related ?

Hole locations
Tee locations
Height of rough
Placement of rough
Buffers of rough

1  Should a Green Chairman who prepares the golf course to suit either his
    agenda or his friend's agenda be removed ?

2  Should a Green Chairman who prepares the golf course to suit his
    membership's agenda be removed ?

3  Should a Green Chairman who prepares the golf course to be "more fair"
    be removed ?

4  What's the difference between # 1, # 2 and # 3 ?

Patrick:
To me it is obvious that personal agendas do influence all of the above.  Too often Green Chairman set up and/or change a golf course to their personal likes, etc.
The set up should be mandated by the overall membership agenda.
Set ups can be easily changed.  The bigger disaster occurs when a Green chairman starts adding, removing, changing hazards, tees, greens, etc. to meet what their personal agenda is.
Best
Dave

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I got a note over the holidays from a golf pro friend in the U.K. whose predecessor was one of the more famous club pros over there.  His advice to his young replacement was that

"Green committees should be drowned at birth."

Absolutely all of the items you listed are subject to the green chairman's personal biases.  So are any bunkers that someone could defend as "out of play."  And so are the placement or removal of trees, which could trump any of the above as a significant change years later.

[Dan Herrmann]

I'm happy to say that our hole and tee positions are chosen by the head greenkeeper.  As are all the other factors mentioned by Patrick.  And he does so in concert with the course's architect's wishes.

Needless to say, it's a fantastic situation.

[Peter Wagner]

Patrick,

Not only is it true on the Green Committee but it's true on every other committee within all clubs.  In fact, if you think about it, it's true for all of politics as well.  The best trait that a Committee Chair can have is altruism.  Putting the needs of the club before your own.  Unfortunately, Altruism is rare among people and especially so among leaders.  

So, should you shoot your Green Chairman for setting up the course to benefit his own game the week before the Member-member?  Probably not because his replacement is likely to be worse.

Try this test:  take the three members in your last 4-ball, could any one of them do a better job as Green Chair while remaining altruistic?

Dan,
We do it the same way and you're right, it works out better that way.

- Peter

[Adam Clayman]

A big part of the problems associated with tournament and club golf is doing things in equity.
Without many many years of documented experiences, along with an emphasis on equity, committees will yield the subtext of Pat's post.
 
Pat's #3 is a nice start, but, even then things are not always perfect and can always be improved upon.

Since few have any reference or resource to guide them, what else are people going to do but set-up the golf course subjectively?

[Kyle Harris]

Man, with all those mindless automatons we have as superintendents, it's a small wonder the green chairs don't just take over their jobs.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Why wouldn't a green chair attempt to place his stamp on his golf course?  He will be gone in a couple of years anyway and the next guy will do the same.  Let's get a woman in there to shorten things up for a time.  They can plant trees and the next chair can cut them down.  They can add bunkers and the next fellow can fill them in.......

Problem of course is that trees once planted NEVER seem to get cut down, bunkers will rarely be added and and once filled, it would be unlikely that they put back. 

However, I'm not sure what is worse; a course where the green chair runs wild, or a course like mine where nothing ever changes due to some attitude that 'it was always that way' even when shown a photo of a tree that has grown 50 feet since it was put in to memorialize poor old Joe who dropped dead here thirty years ago.

Who was Joe anyway? 

Green committees should be an educational arm.  Why are there brown areas?  Why do we need to remove some trees and judicially add some in other areas?  Why the bunkers aren't consistent and shouldn't be?  Who is a good choice for a master plan to lead our change into the future?  Why does the Superintendent punch those damned holes anyway?  Etc Etc Etc.

[Craig Sweet]

I think the Greens Chairman should come in at 5:30 every morning and set out the tee markers and cut 18 holes...

[Mike_Young]

Pat,
I say a green chair probably does all mentioned.  But I do not think one should be removed for being fair.

BUT I do think time has shown that the best have always and will continue to be benevolent dictators.  When this is not the case I think a club should have a green chair that has already satisifed his ego via his business or other ventures and is not out to let his ego run things.  In so many cases around the country it is a case of where the ones that could actually do the job don't want it and the ones that want it are frustrated with themselves.  JMO
Mike

[Peter Wagner]

I've never been a Green Chairman and after seeing how it works, I will never be a Green Chairman. 

As it turns out the Green Chair is the dumbest son of a bitch that ever walked a golf course.  This is a universal truth seen in every country in the world.  Want proof?  Well think about it, EVERY member knows more about growing grass than the dumbass G.C. and they make sure to tell him on a daily basis.  Trees?  Nope, our helpless putz will NEVER get that one right and bunkers are so far over his head that it's laughable. 

Tournaments are really funny to watch as our little donkey tries sooo hard putting in 100's of hours but we as smart members know that he'll f_ck this one up too.  He can't help it, he's just an idiot.

Hell, even the greenskeeper and head pro laugh at our pudgy dumb shit although they sometimes forget who it was that hired them.  (And as noted by the pro, we should drown them at birth so as to cleanse the gene pool.)

And as if all of the above isn't dumb enough already check this out:  our dumb shit Green Chair not only takes this abuse for free, he pays to be there!!!  How stupid is that!!!  LOL!

So there you have it gentlemen, the dumbest guy in every club - the Green Chair.

- Peter

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I've never been a Green Chairman and after seeing how it works, I will never be a Green Chairman. 

As it turns out the Green Chair is the dumbest son of a bitch that ever walked a golf course.  This is a universal truth seen in every country in the world.  Want proof?  Well think about it, EVERY member knows more about growing grass than the dumbass G.C. and they make sure to tell him on a daily basis.  Trees?  Nope, our helpless putz will NEVER get that one right and bunkers are so far over his head that it's laughable. 

Tournaments are really funny to watch as our little donkey tries sooo hard putting in 100's of hours but we as smart members know that he'll f_ck this one up too.  He can't help it, he's just an idiot.

Hell, even the greenskeeper and head pro laugh at our pudgy dumb shit although they sometimes forget who it was that hired them.  (And as noted by the pro, we should drown them at birth so as to cleanse the gene pool.)

And as if all of the above isn't dumb enough already check this out:  our dumb shit Green Chair not only takes this abuse for free, he pays to be there!!!  How stupid is that!!!  LOL!

So there you have it gentlemen, the dumbest guy in every club - the Green Chair.

- Peter

Whats amazing, in retrospect, is how long it takes for some of us Dumb S..ts take to figure it out

[Scott Stambaugh]

Are there still club's out there that let have no faith in their Superintendent's ability and let the Green Chair run the operation?   

[Mike_Young]

Are there still club's out there that let have no faith in their Superintendent's ability and let the Green Chair run the operation?   

many that I see....of course these are not the type of courses discussed on here.....

[Pat Brockwell]

We've not only eliminated the position, we never formed the commitee.  As Supt., everything is set up according to MY personal agenda; Have fun every time.  The lack of cmte and chm fit my agenda nicely.

[Bill Gayne]

What I look for is consistency over time. I played both of the Golden Horseshoe courses this weekend which I have played many rounds and the staff does a great job in consistency of set-up in the elements listed in Pat's original post. Being RTJ and Rees Jones courses with stable management it really lends itself to consistency. 

How much is the ability to create consistency in set-up a function of architecture or is it totally a function of staff?

[Pat Brockwell]

Bill, It's a meld, the mythical "Maintenace Meld".

[Dean Paolucci]

The problem as I see it is not with the Green Chair but the job description.  The Green Chair is not the subject matter expert on all things under his control, the Superintendent is.  Why is it that if you get information for free (read: Salary) it is less valuable than a Members rant who's personal agenda flys in the face of what your hand picked employee already knows.  Worse yet is a few Members with a little knowledge trying to influence the decision making process.

The corollary is the sign on the wall of every school gym in NJ -

Let the players play
the coaches coach
the referees referee
and the spectators watch!

I can speak from personal experience.  My job (for three years) as Green Chairman was not to dictate.  It was to observe and challenge the Superintendent to make the course the best it can be under the environmental hand which was dealt.  Additionally, I would compile successful ideas from other courses and offer them for consideration to the Super.  Further, I was the political head fielding Member questions and concerns in an effort to free the employee to do his job.  I was the advocate for the department fighting for budget / cap ex dollars and head count at the Board level.  Finally, I was the voice of reason forcing the Club to adopt a Master Plan and stick to it.  We endevored to correct all of the mistakes that prior Chairs had made while attempting to build a monument to their appointment. 

It is ego not passion for the job which fails most Green Chairmen. 

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