[Chip Gaskins]

about who and how Merion was built.

Merion is a good course.....

Is it top 20 in the world, of course not, but is it a fantastic routing for being squeezed into its small property, yes.

The pros are going to shot 15 under unless the USGA mows the fairways 10 yards wide and puts the pins in the rough.

But we should not drag the entire GCA board into three or four guys argument about source documents....

Lets move on...talk about Torrey Pines, Oak Hill, etc....seriously this silly Merion thing can not drag the rest of us down...

[Dan Kelly]

Chip -- I recommend that you follow my fine (for once) example:

Ignore it all! Pick on Matt Ward!

Dan

[Peter Pallotta]

Dan -

I've always meant to ask you - don't you think an exclamation mark might be considered an emoticon of sorts, at least in some circles?

Peter

[Dan Kelly]

Dan -

I've always meant to ask you - don't you think an exclamation mark might be considered an emoticon of sorts, at least in some circles?

Peter

Yes! Absolutely!

I am an emoticon opponent -- but an exclamation enthusiast!

Go figure! 

[Peter Pallotta]

That was not the answer I expected.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chip,

Isn't that part of the problem?

While a course like Merion, no matter how ridiculous and over-the-top our discussion might have gotten, can inspire such passion...

the fact that you are futilely trying to get people to talk about Torrey Pines instead is indicative somewhat of the state of architecture and the modern game, don't you think?

I mean, honestly...what can be said?

Oh boy...Rees sure made those fairways narrow for a 7,600 yard course.  

Geez...you sure need to hit it straight there.   That rough will sure be long.

Wow...those multi-level greens he created are something, aren't they?

Holy Cow...let's move to the Goodyear Blimp shot every 30 seconds or so...isn't that beautiful?

Man...let's talk about the strategies on hole....uh...ummm...ok...let's move to the back nine.

Alright...the USGA decides to override Rees and create at least SOME drama by thinking about moving up the tee about 100 yards on 14.

And how bout that watery finish?!

Ooo boy...now I'm pumped!

We should be able to discuss this one for months.  The imaginative subtleties and masterful creativity and unique memorability of each hole should keep us intellectually engaged through the summer.

[Chip Gaskins]

fair enough...i certainly wasn't trying to talk up Torrey Pines...I only listed it being the US Open was about to be played there, not for its architectural  brilliance.

i was just saying don't everyone get their panties in a wade over who built Merion.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

I have all the respect in the world for all parties involved in those threads in terms of thier research abilities, intellect, and depth of knowledge on Merion...

BUT.........

The last few weeks those threads have been nothing more than grown-up versions of 2nd grader "yes I did/no I didn't", finger wagging, tongue sticking out, "you're stupid" level of conversations.  I must have read dozens of times where someone said they were done, someone else said something to get them riled up, and it was all on again....over and over and over again.

I know it can be hard to walk away from something like this when it concerns such a superb club like Merion, but at what point does it stop?  No doubt its more "worthy" of the OT stuff that is on the board...but last I checked this site was about the actual architecture, not about pissing matches of who designed what and shipping manifests.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kalen,

You're absolutely right.   

Personally, I swore off the discussion about four separate times, only to be baited back by friend and foe.

I'm weak as a heroin junkie when it comes to the need to defend against what I believe is unfounded historical revisionism of a course I care deeply about, and while I'm grateful that the effort to diminish Hugh Wilson's role was ultimately refuted, it came at the cost of making the bunch of us look like complete and total jackasses.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chip,

Does it really matter if the pros shoot -15 at Merion, which I'd be surprised, but is probably possible if the course gets soft and someone gets hot.

Tiger shot -18 at both ANGC and Pebble Beach.   Does it mean they aren't top 20 courses?

See...I can move on. 

Admitting I have a problem is Step 1! 

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,

Fair enough...and I certainly will re-iterate that its gotta be tough to walk away from something like this.

I think the whole lot of you need to go take in a Phillies/Dodgers series (assuming David M is a Dodger fan), get extremely piss-faced, throw around some serious of name calling, perhaps some fisti-cuffs if your feeling spry.  Then after that it'll all be water under the bridge...

My best neighboorhood friend growing up was the one that I always got in the most fights with.  We sure wanted to kill each other a few times but after getting the phyiscal stuff out of the way, it was all smiles and cookies as his Mom would patch us up.    

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

Fair enough...and I certainly will re-iterate that its gotta be tough to walk away from something like this.

I think the whole lot of you need to go take in a Phillies/Dodgers series (assuming David M is a Dodger fan), get extremely piss-faced, throw around some serious of name calling, perhaps some fisti-cuffs if your feeling spry.  Then after that it'll all be water under the bridge...

My best neighboorhood friend growing up was the one that I always got in the most fights with.  We sure wanted to kill each other a few times but after getting the phyiscal stuff out of the way, it was all smiles and cookies as his Mom would patch us up.    

Kalen,

I like your thinking, man.   

I'm not sure how we're going to get David sh*t-faced when he keeps ordering Pumpkin Latte Mochas, but perhaps I can pump some Yuengling Lager into him intravenously while distracting him with cheesesteaks, and then we should both have enough beer muscles to get in a really wimpy, swing and missing row!  We'd probably have a better chance of breaking 70 better-ball on Merion than of actually hurting each other, unless he's learned Tiger Kung Fu since I saw him last. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Chip -

my two cents: I wish the thread had gone in a different direction - one that discussed that early period of American architecture in general along with Merion specifically, i.e. how were courses getting built back then, what were the goals/ideals of the people building them, what role did amateurs play in the process and how did that affect the kind of courses that were being built, how has that changed over the years, etc, etc.  The thread didn't go that way, but it COULD'VE...and that's why I think it's worthwhile. Because it's those kind of discussions that might make the ones you're asking about even more interesting, i.e. why are Torrey Pines or Oak Hill or Wentworth the way they are..what have we gained, what have we lost...that sort of thing.

Of course, that kind of talk might kill those thread too     

[Kalen Braley]

If needs be...

I'll start the collection hat to be passed around so we can all chip in for game tickets, and bottles of 151 and coke to expedite the drunkeness.  Altough I suspect you Merion boys can probably come up with the scratch yourselves.

But I've got $25 on the table to put in the pool right now.  We get 40-50 more donations of similar size, and you guys will have well over $1k for the "night out"

P.S.  If you need a DD, I'd be on the first plane out cause I would certainly want a front row seat to the action.  I'd explain it all to the police officers to make sure there is no pre-mature interference.   

[Bradley Anderson]

Chip,

This whole "can't we just get along" bleat is more tiresome to me than the fascinating posts surrounding the debate that was spurred by David's opinion piece.

[Kalen Braley]

Chip,

This whole "can't we just get along" bleat is more tiresome to me than the fascinating posts surrounding the debate that was spurred by David's opinion piece.

Bradley,

No disrespect, but if you describe the posts that came out of all that as "fascinating", then you'd better get back to your Jerry Springer and Maury Povich shows.... 

[Mike_Cirba]

Altough I suspect you Merion boys can probably come up with the scratch yourselves.

Kalen,

Some mighty fine ideas, but please recognize that I have as much in common with the average member of Merion as Jed Clampett had to Mr. Drysdale.   I'm like the groupie outside of Angelina Jolie's house who periodically is lucky enough to step inside and see her in person.    

The courses I grew up playing had very clear architectural attribution.   It was the farmer who turned his pasture into 9 greens and some ratty fairways and man, you couldn't beat those courses with a stick!  

[Kalen Braley]

Altough I suspect you Merion boys can probably come up with the scratch yourselves.

Kalen,

Some mighty fine ideas, but please recognize that I have as much in common with the average member of Merion as Jed Clampett had to Mr. Drysdale.   I'm like the groupie outside of Angelina Jolie's house who periodically is lucky enough to step inside and see her in person.    

The courses I grew up playing had very clear architectural attribution.   It was the farmer who turned his pasture into 9 greens and some ratty fairways and man, you couldn't beat those courses with a stick!  

Good stuff Mike...

But I suspect your Momma has a corallary to Forrest Gumps Momma who said "Stupid is as stupid does"...and that being "Modest is as modest does".  Tis a good traight to have though...  I figured you Philly boys had to at least have one redeming quality in you.    

[Mike_Cirba]

Modest, Shmodest...I need to get me to Utah where the women are expensive and the golf is cheap! 

Did you see my note about Forest Dale?

[Kalen Braley]

Modest, Shmodest...I need to get me to Utah where the women are expensive and the golf is cheap! 

Did you see my note about Forest Dale?

Mike,

You got one part right, the golf is cheap out here, but I wouldn't know nothing about expensive women except the woman I'm married to who loves to spend it all!!!

I did get the note, sorry I didn't get back to you.  Andy T (who is in town visiting) and I were supposed to go play it on Friday, but mother nature had different plans for us.  I'll definitly get there soon and see what I can dig up on it.

Thanks,

Kalen

P.S.  Bonneville is looking fantastic these days.  I drive past it every day going to work and back.

[Bradley Anderson]

Kalen,

Honestly I don't think there has been any sensationalism on the side of those who have challenged David's opinion piece. Tom Paul may have been born in the wrong century, but you can't hold that against him.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kalen,

Honestly I don't think there has been any sensationalism on the side of those who have challenged David's opinion piece. Tom Paul may have been born in the wrong century, but you can't hold that against him.

Bradley,

How did you possibly miss our completely horrible, irrational provincialism?   Are you from Philadelphia?? 

Kalen,

Bonneville completely rocks.

Some of the modern touches to Forest Dale make it ultimately a bit of a disappointment, but there is history buried under there.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

Honestly I don't think there has been any sensationalism on the side of those who have challenged David's opinion piece. Tom Paul may have been born in the wrong century, but you can't hold that against him.

Bradley,

Your likely correct, I was just looking for a good way to incorporate Springer and Povich into an offical GCA.com conversation and have it be at least mostly accurate/relevant!!

GCA.com, boldy going where no one else dare go    

[Bradley Anderson]

What I meant by that last post was: there was in former times a way of arguing a point that was more man to man than what we are accustomed to today. 16th century men would call us fags.

[Mike_Cirba]

What I meant by that last post was: there was in former times a way of arguing a point that was more man to man than what we are accustomed to today. 16th century men would call us fags.

Oh bugger off, Bradley.   

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