[Adrian_Stiff]

I have been thinking of stripping off the turf of all 18 greens and reseeding them. They are about 7 years old now and probably 30% infected with Poa, until now they have been really good but the Poa tends to double every year and this spring they dont look good, they dont putt good and they are noticeably slower. I was going to strip the turf at about 18mm thickness, rotovate to about 75mm, consolidate then add 18mm of new rootzone, then seed with a bent/fescue mix. The course is in Southern England and I was thinking of doing the job in August with a view to reopen the greens the following May. Any thoughts or experiences?

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

It's a vicious cycle -- you'll keep doing it again every 10 years for the same reason.  If you can get a better grade of Poa annua by stressing it out, you'd be better off in the long run.  Taking greens out of play for 8-9 months every ten years is a loser's game.

[Kyle Harris]

Adrian,

Does it ever get hot enough in the summer that the poa struggles? If so, let it die out, then overseed with bent. Eventually, you'll choke out the poa over the course of a few seasons. You may have to deal with some patchy conditions for a month or so, but I'm guess that's a bit more economical and tolerable than just redoing the greens.

[Peter Wagner]

Adrian,

We have had good luck using a herbicide called Velocity to reduce the poa.

http://www.valent.com/Product.asp?industry=1&segment=GO&key=69120&src

It's expensive but it seems to be working.  Used in frequent small doses we are able to slowly kill the poa while the bentgrass takes it's place.

The Velocity kills the poa but nothing else. (How do it know?)

- Peter

[Phil_the_Author]

Peter,

Why just go to GCA's In My Opinion section and read the latest titled, "Kirtland Country Club Green Expansion" by Chad A. Mark, Golf Course Superintendent.

Complete with photographs of the work as it is being done, it covers many of the questions and points you have...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thanks for your replys,

Tom- I should have mentioned soon the club will have 36 holes so losing 18 of them for what is effectively a winter isn't so much of a problem, the dilema is really do we almost encourage the poa and manage it, at the moment the 30% ingress looks bad, maybe when it doubles to 60 next year it will look better in a strange way. From the start the clubs intention was to resurface the greens every 7 years.
Kyle- It does not get hot enough really in the UK, maybe Bent is only more competitive for say 20-30 days per year, overseeding in the UK is a much slower process to establish.
Peter- That looks a great product, on that can select amongst monocotoleydons and kill one and not the other.. amazing how it works. I assume its not allowed in the UK currently, though perhaps in the future. The biggest drawback for UK use is temperature of course..its mid summer here Ive just put my heating on! tommorow it could be 75F.
Thanks

[Dean Paolucci]

We use Embark (a growth regulator) which prevents seed head production?  We have had excellent success in the North East on our Poa greens.  I cannot comment on if it is available in the UK or if it would work under your conditions.  I think it certainly beats starting over?

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am pretty sure no one in the UK has had any success of totally getting rid of Poa greens and returning them to bent by any herbicide. Our conditions here for so many months are temperatures between 40-50F.
I have heard granulated sugar a 2KG per 500 sq metres of turf can supress Poa seeding...Im not sure the Poa is going to go away though, hence stripping the turf and reseeding. I see this as a fairly easy job, the cost of the seed is fairly neglible, I reckon the cost is labour x4 for a month. There is a cost for 3 months lost play August-October, the winter months are virtually zero, at a single 18 hole course its obviously a problem but with a second course, surely the 8 month pain will be better 8 months later. Wisley do it with turf, my experiences with turf is that it gets invaded quicker.

[Randy Thompson]

Adrian,
 Is it common to mix the fescue with the bent in England and why? I would think going with 100% bent especially the A series would produce a tighter surface making it more difficult for the poa to invade in the future. Usually the poa starts invading after a couple of seasons the size of a coin and should be removed manually before going to seed head. Watch out with the velocity if it comes to England, I lost some turf areas including the bentgrass in trials. Results have been excellent in fairways but mixed results at putting green height. Make sure you get the same sand and mix the new sand in when you mix the 75mm. I have seen to many resurfaced projects where the sand was different then the original sand and they end up creating a pearched water table and the new top surface remains saturated and problems arise such as algae and moss, along with shallower roots and soft putting surfaces.

[Bradley Anderson]

Adrian,

If you go through with it, use Alpha bent by Jacklin seed. It has the same density as the A series, but better Poa resistance, owing to it's higher chlorophyll content.

Poa does get better with age. Have tried controlling the seed head with Proxy at 5 oz ?

[Cory Brown]

Adrian,

It is an age old problem in turfgrass management.  I don't know what herbicides are available in the UK, but I have seen Velocity kill a little bit of everything and all of nothing.  I live in the Seattle area and would guess that our climates are fairly similar, with both mild winters and summers.

In this area Poa thrives and trying to keep it out is an uphill battle.  You might be able to keep it out of your greens with a lot of effort, but eventually it invades fairways, rough and then the seed goes everywhere.  Most clubs in the Pacific Northwest embrace Poa, and have learned to provide very good putting conditions.  The transition period is always the hardest, but even through that there are ways to ease it.  Let me know if you are interested in any more info on maintaining quality Poa greens.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adrian,

We have had good luck using a herbicide called Velocity to reduce the poa.

Peter,
Adrian's question was about greens. Did velocity come out with a green's label?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian,
 Is it common to mix the fescue with the bent in England and why? I would think going with 100% bent especially the A series would produce a tighter surface making it more difficult for the poa to invade in the future. Usually the poa starts invading after a couple of seasons the size of a coin and should be removed manually before going to seed head. Watch out with the velocity if it comes to England, I lost some turf areas including the bentgrass in trials. Results have been excellent in fairways but mixed results at putting green height. Make sure you get the same sand and mix the new sand in when you mix the 75mm. I have seen to many resurfaced projects where the sand was different then the original sand and they end up creating a pearched water table and the new top surface remains saturated and problems arise such as algae and moss, along with shallower roots and soft putting surfaces.

Randy - Yes sowing with fescue and bent as a mix is very common in the UK. In some respects its strange because these grasses have cultural methods at the opposite ends of the spectrum, the fescue is used sometimes as a nurse crop but will do well as long as mowing can be resisted below 6mm, this is probably possible as long as the green is predominately fescue, however as soon as poa gets in it really shows up and the two just dont mix, poa and bent dont mix too bad of course, but I am talking more traditional bents not creeping ones, they are difficult to retain in the UK because of the amount of days we have under 50F. I have worked with pencross since the mid 70s and we tried everything, most Americans will say it will work here, James Beard was convinced creeping bents will succeed here as well but we simply have too many days where growth rates are virtually zero and with wear first in is the poa.
Thanks Cory & Brad- I am going to try resurfacing one to start with, and see how it goes.

[Joel_Stewart]

There is a course in the San Francisco area that has been able to keep poa out for 7 years using an herbicide but now they have discovered that they have 18 small toxic dumps and the bent is being stressed by the herbicide.  They are back to square one, not sure what they are going to do.  There doesn't seem to be any scientific facts that show any type of treatment can keep the poa out.

Adrian: Are your greens push up?

[Jon Wiggett]

Adrian,

in southern england Poa is always going to appear. to help reduce it go with a fescue orientated program and maybe talk to RSTI or Steve Isaac at the R&A.  If you are going to strip and seed then think about doing the surrounds at the same time.

[Ian Larson]

I wouldnt put the membership through the closure just for 30% poa annua infestation unless the membership told you to. But if you do be prepared to be on the ball with controlling it afterwards. Because if youre not you could easily get that 30% back in a year or two making it a waste.

Personally, I would promote it. Youre in poa heaven in southern England! poa is the densest putting surface ever. Keep your course open, cultivate the poa and keep members happy. You could get those greens with your climate close to 100% in a year or two if you let it go and promote it. This years US Open site Torrey was in the same situation a couple years ago and they decided to embrace the poa. Theyre now 100%.

In the event you dont want the poa there are programs you could go with instead of physically resurfacing. Obviously you could go chemically and kill it off. But another option is the Mark Logan program. Hes an Aussie that developed a style of greenkeeping to eradicate poa in bentgrass and it works. The aussies swear by it.

[MClutterbuck]

There is a course in the San Francisco area that has been able to keep poa out for 7 years using an herbicide but now they have discovered that they have 18 small toxic dumps and the bent is being stressed by the herbicide.  They are back to square one, not sure what they are going to do.  There doesn't seem to be any scientific facts that show any type of treatment can keep the poa out.

Adrian: Are your greens push up?

Joel, was this Velocity?

[MClutterbuck]

For what its worth, we had 1 green with approximately 15-20% of poa, with another 17 greens with less than 1%. We were looking at regrassing the whole green to make it consistent with the other 17. As a last resource we used Velocity on the back 1/3 of the green in the summer of 2016. Normally when Velocity is used on greens, height of cut is increased to fairway heights. Our agronomist recommended and we agreed to risk loosing 1/3 of the green and applied Velocity all summer (weekly) and we killed off most of the poa annua on that part of the green. We decided to continue in 2017 and applied Velocity to the full green all summer at 3mm HOC and continued to roll 3 times a week. To be clear, the manufacturer clearly discourages this practice.

It is probably too early to know for sure, but it appears we have reduced poa significantly, probably even below 1% in the area that received this treatment for 2 summers.

The greens are now 11-12 years and rolling perfectly and we have no plans to resurface.

[Neil Regan]

For what its worth, we had 1 green with approximately 15-20% of poa, with another 17 greens with less than 1%. We were looking at regrassing the whole green to make it consistent with the other 17. As a last resource we used Velocity on the back 1/3 of the green in the summer of 2016. Normally when Velocity is used on greens, height of cut is increased to fairway heights. Our agronomist recommended and we agreed to risk loosing 1/3 of the green and applied Velocity all summer (weekly) and we killed off most of the poa annua on that part of the green. We decided to continue in 2017 and applied Velocity to the full green all summer at 3mm HOC and continued to roll 3 times a week. To be clear, the manufacturer clearly discourages this practice.
It is probably too early to know for sure, but it appears we have reduced poa significantly, probably even below 1% in the area that received this treatment for 2 summers.
The greens are now 11-12 years and rolling perfectly and we have no plans to resurface.

[Kelly Shumate]

Adrian,


I believe you can keep your greens clean from Poa encroachment, but their are more pieces to the puzzle after the work
You do on the greens. 
I was able to keep our greens clean after a renovation for 6 years with fairways about 30-40% poa. 
The new super bents will cover quick and this will help in your efforts. 
Proper timing is everything.  Make sure you're club is allowing you to do this when conditions are conducive to growing bent vs poa.


Renovation to you approaches , walk on's/off's roll offs are also needed if you have heavy populations in these areas.
Treat them same as your greens in your battle as these areas are where the majority of seeds come from.


After the fact:
Nothing beats a knife and army of staff cutting out small plants that have moved in over winter.  We try to have all greens picked clean before we go into aerification and other cultural practices.
It takes a crew of 8-10 men about 10 days to do this during second assignments daily. 
It is so important your club allows you to aerate during the right time of year. 
Leaving holes exposed during winter early spring is just begging Mr. Poa to come on in!
We wait until soil temps get 55 degrees so we know the bent will start to grow.  After we have them picked, verticut,aerate, sand and recover.   Once the surfaces have healed get on a pgr schedule.   We do 3 apps of trimmit in the spring and 3 in the fall about 21 days apart.  During the summer months we rotate between half rates of cutless and primo on a biweekly schedule. 
I had help from Dr. Lane Treadway with this program and has worked for us. 


Best of luck with your project,and telling yourself you can keep them clean is half the battle!

[Adam Lawrence]

Adrian,


I believe you can keep your greens clean from Poa encroachment, but their are more pieces to the puzzle after the work
You do on the greens. 
I was able to keep our greens clean after a renovation for 6 years with fairways about 30-40% poa. 
The new super bents will cover quick and this will help in your efforts. 
Proper timing is everything.  Make sure you're club is allowing you to do this when conditions are conducive to growing bent vs poa.


Renovation to you approaches , walk on's/off's roll offs are also needed if you have heavy populations in these areas.
Treat them same as your greens in your battle as these areas are where the majority of seeds come from.


After the fact:
Nothing beats a knife and army of staff cutting out small plants that have moved in over winter.  We try to have all greens picked clean before we go into aerification and other cultural practices.
It takes a crew of 8-10 men about 10 days to do this during second assignments daily. 
It is so important your club allows you to aerate during the right time of year. 
Leaving holes exposed during winter early spring is just begging Mr. Poa to come on in!
We wait until soil temps get 55 degrees so we know the bent will start to grow.  After we have them picked, verticut,aerate, sand and recover.   Once the surfaces have healed get on a pgr schedule.   We do 3 apps of trimmit in the spring and 3 in the fall about 21 days apart.  During the summer months we rotate between half rates of cutless and primo on a biweekly schedule. 
I had help from Dr. Lane Treadway with this program and has worked for us. 


Best of luck with your project,and telling yourself you can keep them clean is half the battle!

Kelly, re the super bents, Adrian is talking about traditional browntop bent (agrostis capillaris), not creeping bent (agrostis stolonifera) as you would probably use in the US. As discussed above creeping bents are very rare in the UK; our climate doesn't favour them and our budgets are typically not big enough to give them the level of care they need.


As for the idea of eight or ten guys digging out poa with knives, the overwhelming majority of UK courses would not have eight guys on the entire greenkeeping crew!

[Kelly Shumate]

Adam,


The super bents I was referring to are from the us.  I do know there have been clubs that have switched from colonial bents to newer varieties.  Given the slow
time to establish, these newer varieties
Could help in the cause.   
I believe with the advancement in genitecs, inputs managing these super
Bents are and can be lower than ever. 


I understand staffing size etc, but if there is a will there is a way.   Greens committee members, volunteers, shop personal can be trained to use a butter knife for a few days every year!


I don't see anything wrong with embracing the poa either.  I've had old perrenial poa greens also, and they can be pretty pure as well!   Definitely need big budget managing them if you have a hot stressful summer and fall!   

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thanks for all the comments, this thread is 9 years old from the original.


We have experimented with resurfacing greens and starting again, we did a putting green. Result = it is very difficult and probably not worth the bother.


What happened to us was we kept the greens very pure for 3 years using colonial bent and fescue but 50/50 which was probably 95/5 by seed number. At the 3rd year we were probably 1% infested with Poa, at the 4th year we looked at the poa picking and after two greens we had about 400-500 1" rosettes/ now holes which we filled, the problem being it took a lot of time, looked at right mess and when new seed germinated which quickly killed it with close mowing...so we gave up. Years 4-7 took us to a stage where we had a Poa dominance. We got about 7 years clean out of our greens.


When we did the resurface we seemed to hit what was our YEAR 4  at that first year. New golf courses often have very little rogue seed flying about. Existing golf courses have a lot of rogue seed and I think that was the difference. We never really got that surface anything like as clean as when we sowed from the outset. Pretty much what Tom said.


We are a UK golf course in the South-west. Creeping bent does not really work, we don't have the chemicals to take out Poa and leave the Bent and the temperatures are against us. In the UK fairways can easily survive being mown at 1/2" and not need irrigation, but those conditions don't favour starving the greens to rid the poa and probably only on 20-30 days of the year do the temperatures reach a level where the bent grass would be more competitive against the Poa.


Like most we learned to live with a bent/poa mix.


300 miles further South it would be very different.

[Justin VanLanduit]

For all the conversation regarding Velocity; it must be noted that the label specifically states not to apply to greens.  So if apply to such surface you will be applying off label which is a no, no.  Along with that if you have an issue; say the whole green dies you will have no support from the chemical company.  Velocity has been used to success but also detriment.  A lot of different factors are involved like pH, soil moisture, etc...  Be very careful! 

[MClutterbuck]

For all the conversation regarding Velocity; it must be noted that the label specifically states not to apply to greens.  So if apply to such surface you will be applying off label which is a no, no.  Along with that if you have an issue; say the whole green dies you will have no support from the chemical company.  Velocity has been used to success but also detriment.  A lot of different factors are involved like pH, soil moisture, etc...  Be very careful!

Justin, agreed and I stated specifically that this product is not reccommended for greens and we were willing to take the calculated risk of the bent grass dying. Anybody using it has to understand and evaluate their own conditions. I now know of 28 greens treated in this way and that today are pretty much free from poa annua.

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