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Mike_Cirba

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2002, 02:17:01 PM »
Hod,

I completely agree, although it may seem illogical that the way to test these guys is not with 7,500 courses, but with shorter, more clever courses like Lytham last year.  

The "Tiger Proofing" of courses only ensures that about 5% of the field is in contention, most times.

While I believe it's important that the course is challenging enough for the cream to rise to the top, extreme driving distance isn't something that I believe should be the preeminent factor.  I think you're starting to see the best rise at Muirfield (what a GREAT leaderboard), just as at Lytham last year.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JWalker

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2002, 02:51:44 PM »
The driver's role in golf? The role is to position yourself for the next shot. A player must weigh the consequences and more importantly feel good about their decision as they are standing on the ball. No two players have the same swing and no two players approach the game the same. Sure, it would be fun to watch these guys challenge these narrow fairways and high rough with driver, but that is only one aspect of game. IMO Matt hit on why we are seeing so many irons off the tee, the receptivity of the greens. They would certainly not get away with this approach at the venues he mentioned. The "examination" tests one thing, who has the lowest score after 72 holes of play. The motivating factor for player who wins will (should) be hoisting the trophy with the richest history/tradition and being announced as "the champion golfer of the year".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2002, 03:03:49 PM »
Bethpage a bit unfair -- that's hogwash!

Check the leaderboard gentlemen -- see the names of Faldo and Pavin? I guess they are r-e-a-l-l-y long HITTERS. ;D What disadvantage did they have? I didn't hear them mumbling about having no credible shot.

The issue at Bethpage was that yes, the set-up for Friday's second round was extreme (I concede the USGA should have pushed the tees a bit up on #10 & #12) but the rest of the week you had to play your butt off. All the whiners and wussies were sent packing for the LIE on Friday night!

There's nothing wrong with saying to players you had best be able to really bust it on a few holes. This is world professional golf at the highest level -- not the club member-guest. ::)

Does that mean Tiger has an advantage? Sure, no different than Nolan Ryan had an advantage over other pitchers because he can throw sustained 100 mph heat when compared to others. Do we simply push the pitching mound back because of one pitcher? The driver, besides the putter, is fundamental to golf and has a clear place. I do agree abit with Mike C about trying to understand that adding length for the sake of length is a waste of time but there must be designs that "tempt" the player to hit the big stick. Choking fairways to one-lane highways is not the answer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2002, 03:53:22 PM »
Golfers should be required to hit the driver on all but par 3's.
If they're not good enough to put it in the fairway then they should "take their medicine" or put in more hours on the practice tee.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"chief sherpa"

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2002, 04:11:21 PM »
Matt Ward:

You got that right! The only thing a designer should do is "tempt" a player to try anything--and that includes hitting driver!

"Tempt" not "require"!

The driver is just one of fourteen clubs in most golfers bag and should not have a different role than any other--just one of fourteen!

Really good "temptation" which is one of the true fundamentals of golf architecture has a way of taking care of these things like any club's "role".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2002, 04:13:30 PM »
Matt

One definition of "fair" is "not exhibiting any bias, and therefore reasonable or impartial."

Requiring a 260 yard carry over hay to reach the fairway definitely exhibits a bias toward a very few of the golfers that can carry a ball that far. It slants the playing field toward them. But more than that (since the longest players enjoy an advantage anyway) it punishes the short hitters, thereby giving the longer hitters a bigger advantage. A double whammy. Is that good setup? Not anymore so than the 17th at Valderrama is good setup by putting rough in at the 290 yard range. Is this whining? Its more wondering than whining.

And two BTWs. 1) Corey Pavin finished +17, so I guess he overcame the biased setup (somewhat) and 2) I thought Nolan Ryan's competition were the batters, not other pitchers.

But an interesting question you raise:"Do we simply push the pitching mound back because of one pitcher?" Of course not. So then why are they doing that at Augusta and Bethpage.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2002, 05:00:49 PM »
Hod:

Well said! Superb logic, well stated!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2002, 05:03:20 PM »
I suspect the underlying issue of this thread is not that the pros aren't playing the course the way the architect intended; it's that they aren't playing the course the way we do.

Sure, we're all 10 yards longer than we were 10 years ago, and maybe 20 yards longer than we expected to be at our age, but I'd like a show of hands from those in the treehouse who are playing 450-yard par 4s with a 4-iron tee shot and a five-iron approach. My driver isn't gathering dust, and I suspect yours aren't either.

A competition ball solves the problem if you don't like the style of game the pros play now. It sure beats monkeying with the courses that are played by amateurs 99.9 percent of the time.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Bruceski

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2002, 05:17:50 PM »
Short or long courses, it doesn't matter. Tiger has an advantage. He's an outlier. He still hits his 4 irons and his 8 irons higher and farther than anyone else. [Doesn't it just come down to putting for him, anyway?]

I still think longer courses do a better job of separating the great from the good (as long as the setup doesn't exclude other aspects of good shotmaking). And I still think Bethpage was an enormous success. I find it interesting how many of the world's best cried about the Black's setup during the pouring rain and wind on Friday at Bethpage, but wouldn't dare pull the same routine on a "classic" Scottish links course. There, inclement weather would be considered "part of the great test" of links design, and no one would be talking about issues of "fairness". In all walks of life, complaining and whining come down to context.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2002, 05:35:37 PM »
Bruceski:

Not to dispute your main point about whining -- I agree -- but in terms of rain at the U.S. vs. British Opens, I do think the British seaside links courses drain much better and are more playable in wet conditions than a course like Bethpage Black. At least, I can't recall seeing the puddling during a British Open telecast that we saw at Bethpage.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Matt_Ward

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2002, 05:37:54 PM »
Bruceski: Well said indeed! There will always be wussies and whiners who complain when they can't legitimately compete --they have to provide some sort of spin / rationale on the reasons why they are deficient. You're absolutely right -- the motor mouths competing in the BO this week would not "bitch" for a second about course conditions or weather in Scotland yet they have parakeet size b*lls to knock BB. Utterly gutless.

Hod:

Let's understand that modifying / upgrading the Black was something that should have been done a long time ago. What specific aspects of the Black were over the top? Were you present or did you assess this from viewing only from TV?

The yardage was not excessive given the nature of the field and what was at stake -- golf's most important prize! I do concede the USGA blew it with their stubborness on Friday's inclement weather --specifically the 10th and 12th holes the rest of the preparation was as fair as any Open I have witnessed (been to 24 in person).

You forgot to mention Faldo's finish in the Open. Wonder why?

As to your other points -- length is part of the game and has been since golf was created. People who don't hit the ball long always bitch about the inequity. Hey -- I say simply -- get over it and up the ante in other areas. What about when greens have "excessive contours" do we then say flatten the greens because putting is already "too much" of the game already? No -- we go out to the practice green and try to make the adjustment.

I am not advocating "Tiger-proofing" for the sake of one man, but tweaking courses for the world's best players for the game's greatest prizes is in my mind a necessary condition of play and in maintaining the inherent challenge that must be there for PLAYERS AT THE WORLD CLASS LEVEL.

TEPaul:

Disagree with you on the driver. There are "first among equal" clubs in any golf bag and in my mind it's the putter first, the driver second and a wedge (most likely a SW of one type or another). If you can master the first three clubs I just mentioned you will be a major factor in any event you play.

Yes, isn't it time more holes were created that actually "tempt" the player to hit driver with appropriate rewards / sanctions. Nothing more -- nothing less.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2002, 05:51:26 PM »
Matt:

There are first among equal clubs in the bag, huh?

Well, you are right, that's in your mind--not my mind! In my mind I just want them all to work when I choose them.

Actually I have a good story for you about things like that! Tommy Armour, who some of my friends think was my Godfather used to teach a lot of ladies down at the Delray Beach G.C.

My Dad brought an aunt of mine to him for a lesson and the first thing he did while sitting in his chair is ask her if there were any clubs in her bag she didn't like! She said she didn't like her 6 iron, so Tommy got up, went over to her bag, grabbed her 6 iron and threw it in the bushes and said; "Well, don't worry about your 6 iron, now you don't have to use it!"

I love that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2002, 05:55:52 PM »
Tom:

So if I don't like my putter...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2002, 05:59:09 PM »
Tom:

So if I don't like my putter...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2002, 06:00:01 PM »
Rick;

Then you probably have a real problem!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2002, 09:46:34 PM »
Mike Hendren and Paul Turner,

Go back and reread Paul Richards post.

Tiger hit 4-iron/4-iron on a par 4 not a par 5.

Soon it will be 6-iron/6iron on long par 4's.

Hod,

The pros aren't sacrificing 40-50 yards off the tee.
They're hitting their 3-irons further than Palmer hit his driver.
The equipment and the ball are rendering fairway woods and long irons obsolete.

One only has to look at the 15th hole at the Masters over the years to see what the pros were hitting in to that green and what they currently hit into that green.

VERY FIRM GREENS and more SEVERE green side bunkering may bring the driver back into play if a competion ball isn't put into play
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2002, 02:14:45 AM »
Pat:

Your last paragraph, particularly the capitalizes words!!

Now you're talking turkey! Or should I say the "ideal maintenance meld"?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2002, 09:47:44 AM »
Patrick

You go back and read our posts!

Where do myself or Mike even make the distinction between par 4s or 5s?

Your 6-iron, 6-iron prediction is simply nonsense.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2002, 09:53:58 AM »
TEPaul,

I think greens have, for the most part, become dart boards, and greenside bunkering a diminished hazard.

Even GCGC has become too lush, as evidenced by ball marks, and emerald fairways.

Where have those yellow/brown/green fairways and greens gone ?

When greens are FIRM, missing them extracts a toll, and requires a deft touch.

When mishit or misdirected shots are funneled/directed into difficult bunkers, emphasis on strategy will increase along with the fear factor.

On this issue we're in perfect harmony, which may be unsettling to those who don't understand our relationship.   ;D

I believe that only when water becomes expensive, restricted or both will the trend reverse itself.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2002, 11:03:39 AM »
Pat:

We do agree on the firm greens combined with firm conditions "through the green" (particularly on certain types and styles of courses).

But in my mind the degrees of the receptiveness (or NOT) of greens to aerial approach shots is where setups and maintenance practices can get really interesting, really challenging and very multi-optional in a variety of ways.

Look at it this way. If you had a course like say Merion with very firm conditions "through the green" (particularly anywhere from 40-50yds in on approaches to green) combined with greens that are very receptive to aerial shots (greens that very much pitch mark instead of lightly denting) you have a situation where a wide variety of players can play any kind of shot they want with a high degree of confidence in the shot's success!

Weaker players could run the ball in if they felt they were incapable or less likely to succeed with an aerial shot. Good players could fly aerial shots at greens and very much particular parts of greens (and pins) with a high degree of confidence!

That kind of "maintenance meld" I would call a setup that would make the course vulnerable to very low scoring!

Is that kind of setup multi-optional? It certainly is! But what would induce a good player to try anything other than his aerial option? Nothing would! It's his bread and butter shot and he would have a high degree of confidence it would work all day long--so why would he ever attempt another option, like a runup option?

On the other hand, if you really firmed up the greens (where they lightly dent instead of pitch marking) you have a situation where the weaker player can run the ball in, particularly since he is less likely to choose an aerial option even with very RECEPTIVE greens.

But for the good player with firm greens that slightly dent (far less receptive greens to his standard aerial option) you've created a quandry in his mind!

Now he knows he can't rely on his standard aerial shot without trying to execute it with far more spin than he ordinarily would! He thinks, can I do that with success, or should I try something else, like a runup shot (or some other shot somewhat in between the two)--and how well will that work and am I comfortable with that?

Would that be multi optional too? It certainly would? Only now you've created a situation, unlike the one above with the receptive greens where a good player will choose the aerial option EVERY TIME, where the good player isn't that sure WHAT TO CHOOSE TO DO or what will succeed for him.

Both setups and maintenance practices could be considered multi optional but with the first a good player would rarely consider the ground game option but with the second he's not as sure which to consider and choose or what the degree of success of either would be!

That would be almost forcing him to use real imagination, creativity, confidence and concentration in the decision making process as much as in the actual execution. The only way I can see to do that with a good player is to dial down the effectiveness of his standard aerial option by really firming up those greens to where they lightly dent and he can't control his aerial shot half so well!

The second type (firm greens combined with firm approaches and firm "through the green") would be the "ideal maintenance meld" and setup to me on many of the old ground game designed courses.

And then throw in with that some bunkers that have real meaning, particularly well placed around the greens, as you've suggested, and other things that confuse recoverability and you have the best golf can be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2002, 11:17:41 AM »
TEPaul,

While I agree with your seperate statements, I don't think a golf course can have a dual personality from a political point of view, other than seasonal.

Factions within a club will wage a campaign based upon what they perceive are the best conditions for THEIR game.
This process puts the golf course at constant risk.

I think you may also cause some agronomic problems, unwanted stress and criticism of the superintendent for the vacillating conditions.

I think a golf course, as evidenced through the will of the membership, has to make a decision, one way or the other.  
I don't believe you can have it both ways.  
And, I think, firm and fast is in almost everyone's best interest, the golfers, the green staff, and the finance chairman.

But, that's just my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2002, 11:58:31 AM »
Patrick:

Oh boy, do I ever disagree with your last post!

You most surely can have it both ways (a "dual personality") but the whole deal is definitely in the degree!

First of all on a classic courses like say GCGC, NGLA, Merion, PVGC etc, there is no reason not to try to maintain firm running conditions "through the green" as often as possible which would be always, of course taking into consideration what rain and seasonal conditions do to create softness "through the green". Even the firmest and fastest supers can't prevent softness "through the green" against heavy rain and seasonal conditions! But excepting that inevitable factor, they sure can!

But firmness of the greens (combined with the effects of the speeds of the greens) can be manipulated in very interesting and effective ways!

And on really sophisticated and well designed courses like those mentioned above the effects and the differences on playability of that "dual personality" can be immense!

This was all evidenced to me at Seminole's Coleman over 10 years ago. I know that course well, always have, and I was absolutely amazed at the difference of the course and its "playbability" when they threw it into a real max tournament setup for that Coleman.

For somebody like me it might have been up to 5-10 shots more difficult and intense to play from the way I'd always known it which for purposes of this discussion I'd call normal--or "normal members setup".

And there was really nothing at all over the top or gimmicky about that Coleman max tournament setup!

The fascinating thing is you really couldn't even see the difference that easily except for what I've come to call that "tournament sheen", that shiny color that tournament setups seem to have here and there!

But even more fascinating than that was that in one day after the tournament the course was almost back to its "normal members play setup".

So with a really good super, some good committees or whatever who understand these things (as Seminole's appear to) you certainly can have it both ways--if that's the way you want to do it.

Or if you want to go the Huntingdon Valley route you can maintain a course that plays quite close to "tournament setup" most of the time!

I might call it "both ways" and you might call it a "dual personality" but whatever we call it I don't agree with you that it can't be done! In my opinion, it certainly can!

Even Merion may be going a bit more in that direction.

But one of the most fascinating things I've ever learned with all my interest in architecuture is just how much of a "dual personality" a really good golf course which has really good architecture can have, if you let it!

I did notice that same thing (a real dual personality) at NGLA too, by the way!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2002, 07:25:37 PM »
TEPaul,

The Coleman is a rigged example.

It is usually held at the end of Seminole's golfing season when most, if not all of the members are gone, and shortly before the club closes for play until October.

That time of year can also be ideal, weather wise, in Southern Florida, right before the humidity and daily rains begin.

Try holding the Coleman in Seminole's mid season in January, February or March.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2002, 09:05:35 PM »
Patrick:

"A rigged example"?

Maybe you read half my post. Amend that, maybe you read it all and can't understand it as usual.

The point is the golf course can be put into a tournament setup like the Coleman anytime and if the members aren't playing in the Coleman what would they care what the tournament condition was (or "dual personality")? I already explained to you practically the following day the course is back to membership setup! So what's the big deal to the members if the course has very much a "dual personality" for 4-5 days they aren't playing it?

I'll tell you what the big deal with the membership was! In the beginning when the Coleman started the membership did not want to give the course up and only agreed to it in the middle of May when most of them are gone!

That has nothing to do with the potential "dual personality" of the course which I thought was the point here!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2002, 10:01:39 PM »
So much for 4I/4I today?  Most players couldn't reach with Driver/3W!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »