Where's the DRIVERS role in golf ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In an interview today, Tiger Woods indicated that he didn't just hit irons off of the tees, he hit 4 and 5 irons off some of the tees.

Five years from now will they be hitting 6 and 7 irons off the tee ?

Is the driver being further and further removed from everyones bag.

Other than reigning in the ball, what can be done to make the DRIVER the prefered option when teeing off.

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

Would there be any merit in a change in conditioning of fairways? I'm thinking if the fairways were kept firm, still providing kick and bounce, but raising mower heights, it might  slow down roll. Not sure if the distance would be reeled in enough to make a difference, but it seems to me that fairways cut at 3/8", or even hand mowed (yuck!) provides for way to much distance on well hit drives. Just a thought...

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

You have to provide situations where the temptation to play driver is an option. So many course set-ups today eliminate the club from being chosen. How? Take most dog-leg holes as just one example. You hit to point "A" and then hit to point "B." You don't get macho points because you slugged the ball. You also must provide reasonable successes if players do opt to hit driver. Too often the gain you get from hitting a driver is no more than what you would receive if you teed off with an iron.

I also believe it's time to choke down fairways for those who try to end run around hitting driver. Why not narrow fairways in the 240-260 yards range as well. Does it make sense to follow that type of course narrowing only in the window of those hitting 280 plus?

Pat, the bulk of players were indeed hitting drivers on nearly all of the holes at BB with the exception of about 4-5 holes. I don't believe one has to mirror exactly what was done at BB but I also believe that on some of our best courses -- like Winged Foot, Oakmont, Oakland Hills / South, it still pays to hit driver simply because the loft you will come into the green with a shorter iron is so helpful to get near the most exacting of pins.

Guys like Tiger and Phil plus a few others are the exception. So was Nicklaus in his day with him hitting 1-irons on many holes. Appropriate course set-ups can be brought into being that encourage driver use. Without that the conservative action plan will be followed to the letter by a great many players because it pays off in the end run.

[Mike_Cirba]

When we talk about 250 yard five-irons, let's not forget Tiger's explanation of same.  He basically said he hits his normal 200 yard five-iron, and the ball rolls 50 yards on the links turf.

It seems after one day of play that most everyone in the field has opted for Nicklaus's 1966 ultra-conservative strategy that won him the title.  In that tournament, Jack hit a total of 17 shots with the driver.  Unless Tiger changes strategy, he is looking at 12.

The funny thing is, one of the reasons the USGA has given for not returning the US Open to Merion is that it takes the driver out of your hand.  I wonder if the R&A would be so concerned with those details, and also wonder how many drivers would be taken out of the bag if the USGA ever returned there.  

Interestingly, some recently lengthened holes like 5 and 18 would demand the use of the driver.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

If the set-up philosophy continues with narrowing of fairways, and these fellows continue to hit the ball so far, they will just continue to dial back.   Will 6-iron, 6 iron be the play for future 460 yard par 4's.

Will designs of the future be vastly different than designs of the past ?

[Bruceski]

What can be done to make the driver the preferred club off the tee, while avoiding choking the fairways at 230-275 yds?

Answer: lengthen courses to over 7500 yds.

That might also bring the long-iron approach shot back from oblivion.  

[TEPaul]

Who the hell really cares about the driver in the overall scheme of things?

If these people who regulate equipment care that much about par and preserving it and they decide to set up courses to preserve it to this extent--they can throw anything they want at those player and those players will figure out the best way to shoot the lowest score under those circumstances no matter what club they have to use to do it!

That can certainly be considered reasonable and viable options and strategy too if that's what they want to throw at them!

There's nothing in golf or architecture I've ever heard of that tells or dictates to any player what he has to or should use of his 14 clubs anywhere!

Throw anything you want to at these tour caliber players they will figure out the best way to shoot the lowest number. Some of us really think we know ways to do that better than they do or to prevent them from it--that's total BS!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom Paul,

Just curious, how many holes did the leaders hit driver during The Philly Open @ PV ?

[Paul Richards]

I believe Tiger said he hit just 3 drivers in the first round.

One par 5 he reached with a 4-iron, 4-iron combination.

When you can do that, who needs a driver?

[TEPaul]

Mike Sweeny:

It's hard for me to know how many times some of the long players hit driver at PV in the Philly Open--in the afternoon there was a fairly healthy wind--very much downwind on #7, for instance.

Some like Stu Ingrham might have hit none about 3 at most! One of the best ball striking rounds I ever saw from a long player at PV was Davis Love in the Walker Cup in his only singles match. He never hit a wood at all and by my calculations he was around even par--maybe one over when he won around #15. The only holes I think he could have hit a driver would have been #15 and #16. From the tips on #16 though he hit a 1 iron-9 iron!

Jay Sigel is very long and the only holes I ever saw him hit driver in the past were #15, #16, #18.

[Bruceski]

Major championships should test every club in the bag. That's one aspect that makes them major championships, and not the Greater Milwaukee Open.

I agree that each Major should evaluate the player differently, but rendering the driver irrelevant is taking it too far. By taking the driver out of the equation you allow less skilled players into the mix, and you compromise the championship as a thorough evaluation.

[TEPaul]

Bruceski:

Generally I'd sure agree with you. But take the British Open for instance! Very few seem to be using driver but Mickelson sure is--and he's extremely long! Do you suppose someone forgot to tell him this Open at Muirfield is NOT a through evaluation of his game and his driver and he really shouldn't be using it?

What if Mickelson wins the tournament--what do you suppose that says?

[Bruceski]

Well, seeing that Floppy Phil is +6 today after 15 holes and shooting himself out of the tournament, I would suggest that someone SHOULD be telling Phil how to play the game at Muirfield. Because he evidently hasn't figured it out by himself.

Phil: Put the driver AWAY.

[TEPaul]

Or maybe Phil is just flunking his examination!

Keep hitting the driver Phil--just concentrate and hit it a bit more accurately!

I like Phil and since he alone is going at this tournament so differently this is one I'd really like to see him win!

[Dan Kelly]

Patrick Mucci --

You write: "Other than reigning in the ball, what can be done to make the DRIVER the prefered option when teeing off."

That's like asking: Other than having sexual intercourse, what can be done to create a baby?

In both cases, there are ways to do it -- but why should we?

Rein in the ball.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Does anyone believe that playing a par 5 with 4-iron/4-iron was what the architect intended ?

On LONG par 4's it will soon be 6-iron/6-iron.

The DRIVER and LONG IRONS are being rendered obsolete in MAJOR Championships.

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

I am not a big fan of the choke the fairways approach until there is nothing left to hit to. Especially when grass cuts are so angled to prevent any real aggressive play. Yet, I do realize that accurate driving is no less a major item in identifying great players. In short -- there must be a balanced approach to encourage both features.

On the flip side you cannot MANDATE a player to hit a certain club. The best way to do that is to have designs / set-ups that provide some real gains in HITTING the driver with clear and severe penalties for those who fail. The players at the highest level are not village idiots and they will not play "pot luck" in deciding what club works best from the tee. I don't mind a "club down" approach on a few holes but if a set-up continually says "club down" then I think you have an event that has not fully tested a player's skill. That's just my opinion.

I don't agree with Tom Paul regarding the role of the driver. The club, in my mind, is the ultimate test for length and direction and needs to play a fundamental role in championship golf. The governing bodies that deal with the four major championships are each unique in their overall philosophy. I think that's great because we should see different aspects being tested but the desire to "check" Tiger at the door should not be the main goal -- it should be on having course set-ups that test the fullness of players and the driver is clearly a part of that equation.

In answering your question Pat, I tend to agree with Bruceski in which courses will be lengthened to deal with this trend. But, I also believe for those who lament about longer and longer courses that PURE POWER when harnessed PROPERLY is a major element in a player's arsenal and should not be hemmed in by arcane design features that use gimmicks or other such techniques.  

Pat, when you mention about teeing off with mid-irons I think you're stretching your point. The bounce of the ball is fundamental to links golf and yesterday Tiger reached one of the par-5 I believe with back-to-back 4-irons. I don't know what the precise wind conditions were when he did this but I believe that just because Tiger does something does not automatically translate into everyone else doing the same thing.

[Mike Hendren]

I'm amused by this thread.  Both Bruceski and Pat Mucci opine that the long iron approach is obsolete.  Yet, Tiger's back-to-back 4 irons mentioned by Paul Richards totally refutes that opinion.  Geez, whatever happened to everybody complaining about the pros hitting driver/wedge on all two shotters?  It's not about how far you hit it off the tee but rather what you leave into the green.  With large, soft greens these guys are perfectly willing to have a go with a long or mid-iron.  The better putters are just as likely to birdie off a long-iron approach as they are off a short iron.  

[Paul Turner]

Mike

Exactly!  I'd prefer to see 4 iron-4 iron played than the constant driver-9iron we see on many other courses. And great point about the greens too.

I do agree though, that the rough doesn't encourage players to flirt with the bunkers at Muirfield.  

If the wind blows at Muirfield, we'll see more drivers.  

[Paul Turner]

Patrick

Five years from now, they will not be hitting 6 and 7 irons off the tee.

[John Bernhardt]

The driver is just another club. It is part of what helps one golf his way around the course. A player will hit a driver and challenge the rough and bunkers when he feels that is the play.

[Mike_Cirba]

Did we scream bloody murder back in 1966 when Nicklaus reached the par five 17th at Muirfield (playing the same length) with 3-wood, 5-iron in the final round?  

How about when Faldo did similiarly last Open at Muirfield?

The 9th plays at under 500 yards for a par five.  Thankfully, it's bunkered cleverly enough that driver is only a sane option downwind.  Yesterday, with no wind, Tiger hit each 4-iron about 250 yards, with both shots getting some significant roll (although he did carry the approach about 225 yards).  

I don't see that as anything TOO shameful, and have a hard time understanding how that translates to 6 and 7 iron golf.  

[Andy Hodson]

One day, the touring pros hit the driver too far. The next day, they're not hitting enough drivers.

Well, what is it? So what if they are not playing the course the way the architect designed it. Isn't the beauty of a great course the fact it can be played a number of different  ways?
(I've read that here before, I think). Looking at it a different way, isn't the real issue here that the tour pros are so good with all their clubs that they are willing to sacrifice 50-60 yards off the tee because a 5 iron isn't much more difficult to hit than a 9 iron for them?  And besides they are playing in a stroke play tournament (insert Bobby Jones quote about tournament golf here), where one of the caveats  is to avoid big numbers; to, as a matter of strategy, err on the conservative side, especially in the first two rounds.

Why is it everytime there is a major tournament, the discourse here is on how the game is going to hell in a handbasket because of the ways the big boys are playing?
Bethpage placed a premium on excellent driving...and by doing so effectively put 90% of the field at a disadvantage (and IMHO made for one boooring Open). Scott Verplank noted that there were 9 par fives out there. The initial public read on Muirfield is that it was eminently fair because of the fact it doesn't place such an emphasis on mega long driving.

I think there would be an argument here if the guys were hitting the same irons in to the greens with irons off the tees as they would with a driver. But they're not. They are having to hit longer irons in, because of not hitting the driver. Isn't that the essence of strategy?

[Mike_Cirba]

HOD,

Very well said.  

I would only contest one thing, which you sort of explained later.  You said that "Bethpage placed a premium on excellent driving...and by doing so effectively put 90% of the field at a disadvantage..."

I would change the word "excellent" to "LONG", because those professionals who hit solid, straight drives that were not in the top 10% of driving distance were at a real disadvantage, in some cases not even able to reach fairways with their Sunday best from the tee.  

[Andy Hodson]

Mike

Good point. And that is exactly why Bethpage was a bit unfair. Because a lot of the guys best shots were penalized because of the setup.

Some of the worst decisions in course (re-)design or setup are in an effort to Tiger-proof a course;e.g. Augusta and Bethpage.

Can't we just handicap Tiger and not the rest of the field? They finally did it with Man O'War, turned him around backwards to start a race (before starting gates).