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Michael J. Moss

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Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« on: May 15, 2008, 02:01:59 PM »
In trying to assemble a list of superior short par-4 holes – those around 300-320 yards in distance - these come to mind:

Pacific Dunes - 6th
Riviera - 10th
Fenway – 15th
Pacific Trails – 8th
Piping Rock – 13th

For the most part, these greens are somewhat small, with Fenway’s Bordeaux bottle-shaped 15th taking up only 2500 square feet. By contrast, The Kingsley Club’s 13th green is massive, but with wild, severe contour. In fairness, Kingsley's 13th is advertised as being 285 yards from the back tees. This might put it into another category, that of the "driveable" par-4. But  if I recollect correctly, it plays slightly uphill, making it play somewhat longer.

Are there other examples of short par-4s along the line of Kingsley’s 13th, or as a rule, do they tend to come with smaller or smallish greens? Also, what is the typical size of a MacRaynor “Knoll” green in square feet?

Matt Varney

Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 02:25:21 PM »
Michael,

We are currenlty building a Dye designed golf course in the mountains of Tennessee.  Our 16th hole from the back tee is going to play right at 325 yards.  Pete & P.B.  are creating some nice strategic bunkers and the gren complex is reachable but small.  It appears to be about 3,500 sq/ft.  I am also curious as to the perfect size for a shot par 4?

If the green is small it will look tiny from the tee box and if it is large it could make for an easy par if you just hit a 200 yard shot and hit a gap wedge tight to the flag.  Do the best short par 4's defend par with bunkering and a small green complex or do they just require a perfect long drive to reward the player with an easy chip and putt for birdie?

#14 on our course will be the last par 3 then we close with a stretch of holes that are par 4 #15 is 370 yards, par 4 #16 is 320 yards, par 5 #17 is 600+ yards and #18 is a par 4 450 yards finishing at the rear of the clubhouse.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 02:39:38 PM »
Size doesn't matter.

Interest does!

Seems to me that a great short par-4 could have a green of any size, from tiny to immense -- so long as the green is interesting: narrow, shallow, heavily bunkered, wildly contoured, dramatically sloped.

Mix and match.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brad Klein

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »
Franklin Hills 13th is the best: 1,600 square feet atop a mound, the hole is 305 yards and illustrates my theory about ideal driveable par-4s you can't hold in two.

other candidates:

Boston GC 5th
Bandon Trails 14th (not Pacific Trails!)
Seawane 4th
Creighton Farms 2nd
 

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2008, 03:41:26 PM »
I like the 15th at the TPC River Highlands. The green is pretty big, but it is raised and has at least three tiers. With OB right, lots of bunkers left and water long left, it is a very difficult drive. However, teeing off with an iron leaves a very difficult pitch or full wedge. Each year there are all sorts of crazy scores on the hole.

Michael J. Moss

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 03:54:21 PM »
Brad,

I've played Bandon Trails three times, so I can only attribute the mis-naming to a brain softening at an alarming pace!

The 14th at Bandon Trails is a hole I have birdied. It's also one where I surrendered without recording a score. On the latter occasion, I left the green in tears.

Any examples of short par-4s with larger greens?


Brad Klein

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 04:34:43 PM »
Dan

green there at 15th TPC River Highlands is pretty big and thus not as elusive or as intriguing on a second shot as the others. That's why I left it off, though it's certainly arguable.

I'd also include:

-TPC Scottsdale-Stadium Course 17
-Quail Holllow 14
-TPC Sugarloaf 13 (maybe -- arguable)
-The Country Club 6
-Hidden Creek 8
-Old Sandwich 5
-Stone Canyon 17
-Chambers Bay 12

Bill_McBride

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2008, 04:48:15 PM »
Cypress Point #9 is pretty good.  Very shallow but very wide and tilted green.

Dean Stokes

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2008, 05:02:16 PM »
#5 Friars Head. 340 ish. one small bunker and one hump in the middle front of the green make this an awesome hole. Very bogeyable.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Bob Jenkins

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 05:22:18 PM »

The fourth at Pebble.

Jordan Wall almost drove it, were it not for that lady in the left front bunker.

mark chalfant

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 06:02:18 PM »
Mike

A large green i like is the 11th at East  hampton, quite spacious, and pin position affects tactics on your delicate approach .I also like  the 9th at Milwaukee ( medium with false front) and the 318 yard 5th at Longmeadow. 

The 15th at royal Dornoch  impressed me a lot !  but i cant remember if  it was medium or large


ps  please i.m.   me your contact info,  Id love to catch up

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 06:05:45 PM »
The 12th at Ballyneal is a great short par 4 with a rather large green, which has three distinct areas seperated by rather incideous undulations.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tony Ristola

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008, 01:31:55 AM »
Dan... I think your post pretty much nails it.

John Sheehan

Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 03:30:37 AM »
Size doesn't matter.

Interest does!

Seems to me that a great short par-4 could have a green of any size, from tiny to immense -- so long as the green is interesting: narrow, shallow, heavily bunkered, wildly contoured, dramatically sloped.

Mix and match.

Dan,
I agree with your assessment. 

I would add that the chance of being rewarded for taking the risk must be at least commensurate with that risk.  I remember seeing Jack Nicklaus sitting in the booth during one of the broadcasts of the Memorial.  He said he had originally designed the 14th hole at MV to be a drivable par 4.  He was genuinely surprised that no one ever tries to drive the green.  I'm not.  My god, the infintesmally small odds of pulling that shot off have to be astronomical.

I reviewed the new course at Cache Creek in NorCal recently.  The 8th hole there was also designed as a drivable par 4.  The consensus of the group playing was that no one in their right mind would attempt to drive that green more than once.  Here again, the odds are so stacked against a successful drive that there is very little incentive to try it more than once. 

To me, what makes the drivable par 4 work is that it must be enticing.  To be enticing, the hole must present either a real or IMAGINED possibility of success, even after having failed once. 

In both of the examples I have cited, there is little visually to actually enchant, bewitch or beguile the golfer to overestimate his own abilities. 

At Cache Creek, once a golfer has seen the green complex, it becomes quickly apparent that trying to drive that green is sheer folly.  True, the green in this case is relatively small; but that is not what causes the hole to fail as a risk/reward drivable par 4.  The only "landing area," which is right of the green is miniscule, (and I mean "postage stamp" minsicule), and the carry-bunkers encroach on what little area there is between it, a back right bunker and the green.  There is little in the way of contouring to nudge a ball from that small area onto the green.  There is absolutely no room on the left to bring a shot in from that direction. The obvious play is to hit a mid-iron off the tee and knock a wedge onto the green.  What could have been an electrifying hole is consequently quite a disappointment.

So, while I do not think that the size of the green itself matters when desigining a drivable par 4, I do think there must be some combination of design elements that convince a golfer, rightly or wrongly, that pulling the shot off is an actual possibility.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 03:41:58 AM by John Sheehan »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 03:46:29 AM »
Size doesn't matter.

Interest does!

Seems to me that a great short par-4 could have a green of any size, from tiny to immense -- so long as the green is interesting: narrow, shallow, heavily bunkered, wildly contoured, dramatically sloped.

Mix and match.
Dan- Remember to think all must be subject to being maintained and dramatic slopes mean more green size. Great design must be good for the turf. If you factor that in, then the rest of what you say is perfect.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 11:32:03 AM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Matt_Cohn

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2008, 04:02:52 AM »
You should think of target size, not green size.

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2008, 07:08:52 AM »
    The 8th at Hidden Creek (C&C) is only 300 yards with what seems to be a large green.  What's more, there is really nothing (no bunker, no water, no fescue, etc.) to protect the green.  The only real defense is the wildness of the green, which is blind.  Good hole?  Not sure.

wsmorrison

Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2008, 07:30:39 AM »
The 8th at Hidden Creek is a wonderful hole.  The ideal way to play it is to hit your tee shot over the green.  The approach shot from there is a lot easier than from in front of the green  ;)

I have the good fortune of playing a match there on Wednesday.  I can't hit my driver very well these days (a mystery) so I'll have to come up with something imaginative from a traditional frontal approach on 8.

David Druzisky

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2008, 09:27:42 AM »
Ditto to John and Dan.

With the drivable aspect of the drivable 4 you can walk a very fine line of enticement.  If you can create a design that suggests its better to be "at least" on a difficult surface in one rather than 2 then you have accomplished your goals.  As Brad hints the second shot needs to be hairy for those that play conservatively.  The 2nd shot needs to be a type of shot that may let you get on the surface but maybe not in much better shape than if you drove the green on your first shot.
The greatest of those holes may have a secondary option that is also a wise play, but other options that are not - especially depending on pin position an given day.

So, in conclussion I agree as stated above with Dan and John about the surface,  You may need a decent size green depending on the options you establish in the design or simply to allow significant contour in the surface.  Or, you can set it up with a small perched green or similar to keep it challenging.  On a course that will have a fair amount of play or difficult environmental influences I would start with the former.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2008, 03:42:27 PM »
I think a green like 16 at Pasatiempo, which is massively huge would work well on a short driveable hole.  Because as massive as it is, going at it with a driver would just be futile.

I think the key is not the green size, but how much of the green is pinnable and playable.  As well as leaving a reasonable avenue for one to get to the green.

John Sheehan

Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2008, 10:47:32 PM »
With the drivable aspect of the drivable 4 you can walk a very fine line of enticement.  If you can create a design that suggests its better to be "at least" on a difficult surface in one rather than 2 then you have accomplished your goals.  As Brad hints the second shot needs to be hairy for those that play conservatively.  The 2nd shot needs to be a type of shot that may let you get on the surface but maybe not in much better shape than if you drove the green on your first shot.
The greatest of those holes may have a secondary option that is also a wise play, but other options that are not - especially depending on pin position an given day.


Brad & David - you make a very good point.  Part of the beguiling nature of a drivable par 4 that works is as you both have said:  If the second shot on the hole is still very difficult, that help entice the golfer to pull the driver from the bag.

I have not watched the tournament today, but in the past, when Sugarloaf is playing fast, the drivable 13th is very enticing for the players.  And although I have not played it, it would appear that laying up still leaves a very difficult shot to a (sort of) Redan-type putting surface, with severe slope front and a surface that runs away from the player back.  Given those two choices, it probably makes the decision to go-for-it that much more enticing.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2008, 09:37:21 AM »
Size doesn't matter.

Interest does!

Seems to me that a great short par-4 could have a green of any size, from tiny to immense -- so long as the green is interesting: narrow, shallow, heavily bunkered, wildly contoured, dramatically sloped.

Is that theory borne out by the study of the great, short par 4's in golf ?

What great, short par 4's have huge greens ?
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2008, 09:49:21 AM »
Patrick --

I don't know the answer to your question -- but will answer your question with one of my own:

If something doesn't already exist, is it by definition a bad idea?

You must have heard of the apocryphal quotation attributed to the director of the Patent Office, back in the 1890s: "Everything that can be invented has been invented."

I wouldn't have believed that then, and I don't believe it now.

Dan

P.S. One more question: Do I think any number of currently practicing golf-course architects could produce a great short par-4 with a huge green?

And I'll answer that one: Yes, I do.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

michael j fay

Re: Short par-4 holes - appropriate green size.
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2008, 10:09:54 AM »
The best short four par I have ever played is the seventh at Crystal Downs.
There is strategy from the tee (whether to get close to the green or lay back) the singular most interesting green in golf that is L-shaped meticulously banked and overall a masterpiece.

When I think short par four holes I think of Merion and Crystal Downs.

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