[Allan Long]

I'm lucky to live in Roanoke.

For the ultimate mountain golf experience without panoramic vistas, play the Cascades.

WW

While I agree that panoramic vistas may be lacking at Cascades, don't be fooled into thinking that there are not beautiful vistas there. There is a difference. I'm sure there are plenty of courses where the panoramic vistas outnumber and outclass Cascades, but for the enitre package, it is hard to beat the mountain experience Cascades offers. It's been a while but I seem to remember Pipestem in West Virginia having stunning scenery, with perhaps better panoramic vistas and more rock outcroppings than Cascades, but the golf courses weren't in the same league.

[Doug Ralston]

Doug,

Thanks for the tip on the KY State Park courses.  I was planning to play som eof them this summer like Wasioto Winds so these others just add to the trip.

Matt

Matt;

Wasioto is, IMHO, the least of the four I named. It is a nice course layout indeed, and fits the 'mountain'valley' type to a tee! Beautiful background mountains frame a well designed [Hurdzan] valley site.

Dale Hollow and Hidden Cove are strong traditional courses with some vertical aspect. I think the second nine at Dale Hollow will be memorable for certain. I rate it second in KY. Hidden Cove I rate 3rd.

Eagle Ridge is a love/hate course. I know lots of people who simply find it too extreme to feel comfortable with. OTOH, I know groups who come every year from Michigan, N OH, New England, even Canada, to play in Eastern KY, Hidden Cove, Stonecrest [very vertical too], but they come really to play ER. Be prepared for a tough round 1st time, this is a course where local knowledge helps a lot. But it is the only course I found my fun than Tobacco Road. And after last year's horrible drought destroyed their fairways, forcing them to close, they re-opened May 1st. I just played there yesterday and the conditions were immaculate. Makes my day! Be sure to hit a few extra shots from the tee at #13, just for smiles  .

Those four courses and Stonecrest would send you home with some idea of why I think KY exceeds OH, TN, and IN in great public golf. There are others. Wait! Perhaps you will need more than one trip? LOL

And Matt, if it turns out I am wrong, IYHO, by all means come here and tell these folks what a golf idiot I must be. Not that THAT will be news .................

Doug

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt V:

Just quick two places that come to mind ... assuming elevation of at least 5,000+ feet - I would mention the qualities of Glenwild in Park City, UT - one of the best TF layouts I have ever played.

From a semi-private perspective I would mention the work Greg Norman did with his layout at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott, CO. Well done and quite fun to play.

Matt:

I rarely disagree with you, but we played Red Sky Ranch twice, liked it the first time and didn't the second time.

We thought the greens were way too tricked up, canting the greens in reverse to the slope, very unpredictible putting without local knowledge

Cary

[Wade Whitehead]

I'm lucky to live in Roanoke.

For the ultimate mountain golf experience without panoramic vistas, play the Cascades.

WW

While I agree that panoramic vistas may be lacking at Cascades, don't be fooled into thinking that there are not beautiful vistas there. There is a difference. I'm sure there are plenty of courses where the panoramic vistas outnumber and outclass Cascades, but for the enitre package, it is hard to beat the mountain experience Cascades offers. It's been a while but I seem to remember Pipestem in West Virginia having stunning scenery, with perhaps better panoramic vistas and more rock outcroppings than Cascades, but the golf courses weren't in the same league.

Absolutely.  I in no way intended to understate the experience at the Cascades.  I just wanted to be sure those who haven't played it understand that it's built into the mountains, and not perched on top of them.  It doesn't need them, either.

WW

[Bart Bradley]

Matt:

As a member of Grandfather Golf and Country Club the answer is simply Yes...that is what I like about it    but then again I am a homer.

Bart

Bart... had the good fortune tpo spend a summer at Grandfather... still amongst my favorite courses anywhere... except the third green perhaps!

Greg:

Why don't you like the 3rd green...just because it is DIFFICULT  ?

Remember ...stay below the hole.

Bart

[Allan Long]

WW,

Since you live in the region are you familiar with the Old and Lower Cascades at the Homestead? I haven't played either, but was wondering how do they compare in topography to Cascades? It looked like the Old was on a flatter piece on land being a little farther away from the mountains, but I couldn't see too much of either driving by.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

Sorry to hear that but I still view the Norman layout at Red Sky Ranch as being one of the Shark's best designs and one of the best public available layouts you can play in The Centennial State.

I thought Greg did a superb job in getting the greens to run-off on the sides and he didn't overdose with out-of-place moundings and the like as you see with a few of his other courses.

Cary, I can't reply with knowing the specific holes you believe were clearly a mistake in their creation. If you can provide clear examples I'd be happy to respond.

[Greg Tallman]

Matt:

As a member of Grandfather Golf and Country Club the answer is simply Yes...that is what I like about it    but then again I am a homer.

Bart

Bart... had the good fortune tpo spend a summer at Grandfather... still amongst my favorite courses anywhere... except the third green perhaps!

Greg:

Why don't you like the 3rd green...just because it is DIFFICULT  ?

Remember ...stay below the hole.

Bart

Actually don't have a problem with it and quite like the hole... just old stories about the intercollegiate that used to be held there and many putting off the front and 60 yards down the hill!

Love 12-16

[Ulrich Mayring]

A fair question - I think you’ve answered the question yourself - I would also define mountain courses as golf courses in the mountains based on Dan's argument “vistas, vistas, vistas”

Hi John, many thanks for your answer. Here is a loose translation of my definition, which I used in the German Wikipedia and thus is alway open to improvement:

"Mountain Course is to some extent a marketing term. It is a golf course in the mountains, but in most cases simply a parkland course with attractive mountain vistas. However, a certain uniqueness arises for courses at altitudes of about 1500 meters or higher, because the ball flies farther due to less air friction."

In the Swiss Alps where I live I’ve constructed a number of “Alpine” courses. Interestingly or uninterestingly the majority are on relative flat terrain on plateaus in elevated regions.

Can you tell me which ones? I sometimes play in the Alps, Swiss or otherwise.

The highest one I know of in the Alps is Pila G.C in the Val d’Aosta at 2300m above sea level. There are at least 3 or 4 above 2000m in the Alps.

Are you sure about that? To the best of my knowledge the highest Alps courses are all at about 1700 or 1800 meters with the sole exception of GC Cervino (Aosta Valley) at just over 2000 meters.

- different grass types (fescues, poa supina),

Would you say these grasses have any effect on playability?

Crans in Switzerland is one of the stops on the European Tour.

Yep, I've played there. This is definitely a parkland layout and not too quirky. Otherwise the Tour wouldn't go near it

Ulrich

[Wade Whitehead]

WW,

Since you live in the region are you familiar with the Old and Lower Cascades at the Homestead? I haven't played either, but was wondering how do they compare in topography to Cascades? It looked like the Old was on a flatter piece on land being a little farther away from the mountains, but I couldn't see too much of either driving by.

I've never played the Old, but have seen it.  It hasn't stood the test of time like others, primarily due to length.  It sits directly behind the hotel itself.

The Lower has a much different feel than the Cascades (or, as we call it here, the Upper).  The Lower meanders around a couple of wide creeks and features more level fairways; it's important, however, to remember that everything's relative, and that "more level" than the Upper can still be pretty crooked.  There are a couple of holes that turn sharply uphill (4 and 10, in particular), and one excellent par three (eight).  It's not the test that the Upper is, but is well worth the trip, and would stand alone as a flagship course if the Flynn masterpiece wasn't just down the road.

WW

[Doug Siebert]

Any of the choices work EXCEPT heavily wooded.  Think about that a second, you are hitting at altitude so the ball goes further, you are hitting some shots pretty severely downhill, and there are probably some pretty crazy winds around there too.  So yeah, what we really need when the ball is carrying extra far and getting blown around unpredictably by the wind is to have heavy woods to the side so the course is either super penal or super slow from people hunting for their golf balls.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Ulrich,

I once played the alpine courses of Val d’Aosta about 12 years ago and I had Pila in my head as higher,  however after checking it is listed as 2110m above sea level.

Here are some statistics I’ve gleaned from the Internet of the higher courses in the alps.

Meribel      F           1'710 m a.s.l (above sea level)
Samedan   CH        1'720 m a.s.l
Claviere      I          1'760 m a.s.l
Les Arcs     F          1'850 m a.s.l
Arosa       CH         1'850 m a.s.l
Flaine         F          1'920 m a.s.l
Riederalp CH          1'950 m a.s.l
Cervino      I           2'020 m a.s.l
Sestriere     I          2'035 m a.s.l
Tignes        F          2'100 m a.s.l
Pila             I          2'110 m a.s.l


My alpine courses in Switzerland are
GC Appenzell             1'000m a.s.l.,
GC Flühli                    1'000 a.s.l.,
GC Source du Rhône 1'350m a.s.l.,
GC Matterhorn-Zermatt 1'350 a.s.l.,
GC Riederalp             1'950 a.s.l.

Some other courses of mine in Alpine Regions with great mountain views but at lower levels are:
GC Domat-Ems, 700 a.s.l.
GC Interlaken,   550 a.s.l.

and my favourite GC Leuk 600 a.s.l- a links style course, full fescue tees, greens and fairways has also great views up the valley of the Rhone in Canton Valais.





At present I’m finishing the first phase of GC Sagogn-Schluein, 750 a.s.l near Flims in Canton Graubunden, also with great alpine views. If you should ever be up this way I’d be happy to show you around.

Cheers
John

[John Chilver-Stainer]

It’s interesting how the grass factor is significant.

“Good” golfers or committee members like to compare the alpine golf courses with the lowland golf courses, and their most common remark is

“the alpine greens are slower”

which on analysis is the comparison of the grass types one often finds in lowland courses - Penn A4 or L93 (both with a high Agrostis Stolinifera content) compared with the traditional grasses of the alpine regions.
Stolinifera grasses have difficulty in alpine regions usually due to the lack of direct sunlight (shadows from the mountains) and come out of the winter badly. As a result there are delays to the start of the already short season of alpine courses due to recovery and overseeding.

The tendency, at least on my courses, are to utilise more traditional high elevation grasses, often the fescue variety.

However if the course is humid or overwatered poa supina and poa annua will take over.

Neither fescues or poa supina can be cut as low as the Stoliniferas so putting surfaces tend to be slower.
Fescue greens tend to be harder and supina greens tend to be softer.
So playability, or ball roll in this case, can be affected by the higher elevation grass types.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Hi John,

first off, many thanks for your list of Alpine courses with elevation figures, this should come in handy for future references. I think we should also add Alta Badia (Italy) at 1700m.

Interesting you did Riederalp, I was there a while ago and took a picture of it from the cable car:



I heard great things about Domat-Ems and Source du Rhone, but was never there. And it's inexcusable that I missed Leuk, while I was in Crans-Montana. About Interlaken, isn't that an older course? Did you  do a redesign there?

At present I’m finishing the first phase of GC Sagogn-Schluein, 750 a.s.l near Flims in Canton Graubunden, also with great alpine views. If you should ever be up this way I’d be happy to show you around.

Well, what do you think about Monday, July 28th?

I am playing in this tournament at Golf dei Laghi and on our way home to Germany we are certainly passing through Switzerland.

Kind regards,

Ulrich

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Ulrich,

Thanks for the pic of Riederalp at 1950m a.s.l.

Perched on the side of a mountain, it’s a very small 9-Hole built on 7 hectares!! The course is extraordinarily popular considering - it is only reachable with a 20 minute ride with a cable car from the valley below - it is only open from June till September  - and it doesn’t have a proper clubhouse, only a shack and an open air dining terrace. At weekends the competitions are booked out - the members love the alpine setting, the informality and the low scores!!

Interlaken was originally routed by Donald Harradine in the mid 60’s. Over the years the basic greens had sunk into the soft ground and the course overgrown with birches.
The Cantonal Authorities wanted to improve a nature reserve running next to the course and integrate a network of lakes and watercourses into the golf course. The Golf Club saw an oppurtunity to improve their golf course and instigated a design competition. I was fortunate enough to be able to realise my project.

The Par 72 routing remained the more or less the same although in 2 of the holes the Greens were completely repositioned.
All the Tees, greens and bunkers were redesigned and relocated. 1000 trees were felled and 7 new lakes and 4 new watercourses could be strategically utilised for the golf and integrated into the nature reserve.


12th Hole G.C. Interlaken


Here are a few pics from the grow-in of my latest project in Sagogn near Flims in Canton Graubunden. I’m not sure if I’ll be around at the end of July but the Thomas the manager will be happy to show you around - please give me your private email and I’ll keep in touch.















Cheers
John

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