[George Pazin]

Caveat though:  it is not everyone's cup of tea - George Pazin has little love for it - but that's because he just plain doesn't like desert golf.  I doubt you feel that way, but for anyone else who does, well... Black Mesa obviously would not be worth seeking out.

I find this misstatement highly misleading.

I don't dislike desert golf - I HATE desert golf.

 

Well, as much as I could hate any type of golf, which admittedly isn't very much.

[Lou_Duran]

Two regrets about my two rounds at Black Mesa:

1) not starting on #10 (I think #1 is a dreadful starting hole);

2) not having a rock club in my bag.

Fully agree that Baxter is a talented architect and golfer, as well as an all around good guy.  I do look forward to playing Black Mesa again some day. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Kalen:

Pasatiempo is a classic gem, and one of the greatest courses in our nation.  Now one magazine would wuss out at this point and just say one can't compare it to a modern great like Black Mesa.  Not mentioning any names, but lots of people here serve on it's rating panel.

Of course I do not make such wussy distinctions.  I just merely commenting on the huge difference between these two courses in what they are, not their quality.

Thus to answer your question, I do think Black Mesa comes pretty darn close, but does not surpass Pasa.   But I likely have it closer than others.

TH

Thanks Tom,

Thats some very good information to digest, even if I did have to be the bad guy and call you to the carpet!!    

All three courses have their weaknesses, but given calm, 70-degree F conditions, my personal heirarchy would be:

1) Black Mesa 2) Lakota Canyon 3) Pasatiempo

The back nine at Pasa is sublime, but #1 and #s 6-9 left me a little flat. The par 3s are definitely its greatest strength,  though there are some excellent longer holes.

Lakota also has some weaker holes (mostly on the back side, e.g. #10, #14)  and the bowl green complexes are a bit repetitive, but  tee to green there are a lot options for longer hitters (especially given the altitude). The par 5s are all reachable for those that challenge hazards successfully, but not pushovers by any stretch.

Black Mesa has a great set of reachable par 4s in #7 and #14 and a solid set of par 5s to match. I played the course on the brown, dormant grasses of March 2006 but the surfaces played quite nicely, fast and firm.

[Tom Huckaby]

I have not been to Lakota Canyon and it's pretty certain I never will get there.

So....

That's a tall statement putting Black Mesa above Pasatiempo, Kyle.  However, unlike other discussions in here in which disaparaging of Pebble Beach caused me to doubt a poster's sanity, I do not hold any doubts about yours.  To me, Black Mesa is that good, such that any preference for it over an established great like Pasatiempo is certainly very arguable.

Yep, Black Mesa is that good.  Man I would LOVE to get back there some day.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Perhaps Pasa and Black Mesa could be in the same league.  But having played both Lakota Canyon and Pasatiempo, in my mind LC is not in Pasa's league at all.

[Tim Bert]

I have not been to Lakota Canyon and it's pretty certain I never will get there.

So....

That's a tall statement putting Black Mesa above Pasatiempo, Kyle.  However, unlike other discussions in here in which disaparaging of Pebble Beach caused me to doubt a poster's sanity, I do not hold any doubts about yours.  To me, Black Mesa is that good, such that any preference for it over an established great like Pasatiempo is certainly very arguable.

Yep, Black Mesa is that good.  Man I would LOVE to get back there some day.

TH

Somewhere in this post, I'm almost certain you said that Black Mesa is better than Pebble Beach! 

[Andy Troeger]

Huck,

I think Black Mesa and Pasatiempo probably for all their differences PLAY more similarly than one would think. Maybe I say that just because the greens are focal points. I can think of courses that more dis-similar at least (Black Mesa and Spyglass or MPCC Shore for example to stay in your neck of the woods seem to have less connection to me).

I stand by my earlier comment as well that Black Mesa would be my preference of the two. Both are top 100 level to me so its a minor detail what the order of preference would be really. I would be curious to hear comparisons of Black Mesa and The Kingsley Club from anyone who has played both. I'd pretty well call that one a draw myself.

Lakota Canyon as good as it is doesn't stack up to me with either Black Mesa or Pasatiempo. LC might be top 100 in my book as well (I'd certainly pick it over at least a handful of courses that do make the magazine lists), but the repetitive aspects push it ever-so-slightly behind the other two I think.

Never fear though...Black Mesa is not as good as Pebble Beach!  

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - great post - love it!   

Andy - I guess by my total apples and oranges thing I meant the whole look and feel.  One is in desert mountains and canyons, the other is tree-lined parkland more or less, surrounded by houses.  I get ya re the greens being the focal points, but man that's not enough to make me move from these being wholly different!

And like I say, if anyone does prefer Black Mesa, than they are least not insane.  It is very close as I see it. 

TH

[Andy Troeger]

Tom,
No disagreement with anything you said that last post. Its no landslide by any means, even including Lakota in the conversation.

[Matt_Ward]

Black Mesa is unique because it doesn't favor any particular style of play. From the tips the course has sufficient length but given the altitude and dry turf conditions the average length player can be most effective provided they have a deft putting touch.

Someone mentioned previously the quality of the short par-4's and the par-5's as a group. I quite agree.

I posted awhile back that I see the par-4 7th as one of the best short holes I have ever played among public courses here in the USA. The hole invites temptation and will quickly slap you silly for the slightest transgression in your execution (lack thereof).

The renowned par-5 16th has been mentioned many times and I salute the brain power of Baxter Spann, Eddie Peck and Pat Brockwell in so cleverly routing the hole out of the area it occupies to the glorious two-hole finish you get with the 17th and 18th holes.

Black Mesa is a joy to play because while it can play benign when the wind lays down -- the course can also be a tiger when the wind reaches the 20-25 mph levels. I can remember vividly ripping a full driver into a gale just to get to the middle of the 8th green !

If anyone truly believes such courses like Wild Horse and Bethpage Black, to name just two highly rated public courses, are thaaaaat far ahead of Black Mesa then clearly those believing that have a different sense of what superior public golf can and should be.

[Bill_McBride]

Huck,

I think Black Mesa and Pasatiempo probably for all their differences PLAY more similarly than one would think. Maybe I say that just because the greens are focal points. I can think of courses that more dis-similar at least (Black Mesa and Spyglass or MPCC Shore for example to stay in your neck of the woods seem to have less connection to me).

I stand by my earlier comment as well that Black Mesa would be my preference of the two. Both are top 100 level to me so its a minor detail what the order of preference would be really. I would be curious to hear comparisons of Black Mesa and The Kingsley Club from anyone who has played both. I'd pretty well call that one a draw myself.

I fully agree with Andy - it's the greens complexes plus how important it is to drive to the proper areas of the fairway that make a comparison possible.  It's really hard to believe how good the greens are at Black Mesa in terms of contour, feeding the ball off slopes, backstops.....fun fun fun.

I played Kingsley Club last summer.  I would rank Black Mesa just a bit ahead - more exciting greens, two great short par 4s vs one at Kingsley.  Or maybe two at Kingsley, these are two terrific modern courses.  Points for Kingsley because it's much more walkable.

So maybe even.......

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I agree with you - match play comparison between Black Mesa and The Kingsley Club would be a very interesting situation. I favor the Santa Fe layout because the totality of all the different holes is much deeper. Kingsley has a number of unique holes -- many are on the front side. I don't see the stretch of holes from #10 thru #12 as being anywhere near as solid. Black Mesa does have the much tougher green sites.

Bill, if you have Black Mesa just slightly ahead -- I guess it's fair to say the course would be among your personal favorites in the USA. Do you have any other bonafide public courses that you would rate ahead of it?

Thanks ...

[Bill_McBride]

"Bonafide public courses?"  Regardless of cost?

I would rate Pacific Dunes ahead, Bandon Trails maybe even, Bandon Dunes a bit behind, Cuscowilla a bit behind, Pebble a bit ahead, Spyglass behind.....

Haven't played the courses at Bethpage.

So I listed public access even if high end resort, vs purely privates.  IMO, Black Mesa does very well in that strata.  I don't what they need to do to draw a bigger audience, but a second course by Tom Doak would be beneficial to both courses at one resort.  (I say resort because it's pretty obvious the tribe is planning to step up its resort building).

[Andy Troeger]

The only two public courses that rate higher on my list than Black Mesa at present are Pebble Beach and Blackwolf Run River. Spyglass Hill and Paa-Ko Ridge are also in my top five of what I've played.

Whistling Straits, Harbour Town, Tullymore, Pasatiempo, and Lakota Canyon would be the rest of my top ten.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I don't doubt that adding a second 18 would be a plus for Black Mesa but the singular fault is more about rater indifference to get a location that is more easily accessible than Bandon, OR or a host of other spots in the USA.

Black Mesa is also "hurt" by the fact that a so-called "non-celebrity" architect is responsible for what you see there now. Far too often courses get tremendous mileage from the "name" designer tied to the facility. Frankly, I don't see why that should matter but it does. If you switched the names fromBaxter Spann to Tom Doak right now for Black Mesa with the same exact course there -- the overall visibility and fanfare tied to the course would be no less than double of what you see now. Far too many people chase the "name" because they believe only those individuals are capable in doing marvelous things. See the same discussion that took place recently on GCA on the layout by C&C at Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa and what Ken Kavanaugh did at the nearby Vista Verde as another case in point.

I appreciate your take on the different courses you mentioned. I see Black Mesa being on par with Pac Dunes, ahead of the Trails and the original 18 at Bandon. I concur with you that Pebble would be a "bit ahead" with Spyglass being behind.

You have not played the courses at Bethpage -- I would say Black Mesa easily beats all the other layouts save for the Black. Although I must say that the Black today is the modern equivalent of Barry Bonds and has focused almost exclusively in promoting "muscular" golf and little else. There is much to celebrate at the Black but unfortunately there's been a desire to "beef" up what is there to the exclusion of anything else (e.g. excessive rough and overly narrow fairways on a day-to-day basis, to name just two examples).

The good news is that the overall push for golf in the I-25 corridor between Santa Fe and Albuquerque is growing with each year and more people are beginning to realize what is there -- starting with Black Mesa. We shall see ...

[Bill_McBride]

Now if they just could have done something about the S-L-O-W greens at all three courses we played - Black Mesa, Pa-ako Ridge, Cochiti.  Bummer. 

[Kyle Henderson]

The only two public courses that rate higher on my list than Black Mesa at present are Pebble Beach and Blackwolf Run River. Spyglass Hill and Paa-Ko Ridge are also in my top five of what I've played.

Whistling Straits, Harbour Town, Tullymore, Pasatiempo, and Lakota Canyon would be the rest of my top ten.

As I said earlier, I put Black Mesa ahead of Lakota Canyon and Pasatiempo, but I would put it slightly behind Tobacco Road. At any rate, it's in mighty company. I think we're splittig hairs.

[Andy Troeger]

Now if they just could have done something about the S-L-O-W greens at all three courses we played - Black Mesa, Pa-ako Ridge, Cochiti.  Bummer. 

Wrong time of year I'm afraid for that...BM and Paa-Ko usually keep them at a nice pace although not super fast (which would be a bit much anyway).

[Bill_McBride]

Now if they just could have done something about the S-L-O-W greens at all three courses we played - Black Mesa, Pa-ako Ridge, Cochiti.  Bummer. 

Wrong time of year I'm afraid for that...BM and Paa-Ko usually keep them at a nice pace although not super fast (which would be a bit much anyway).

Correct, the greens were coming out of winter and had been punched and sanded a couple of weeks earlier.

I'd have thought they would have double cut and rolled for us, but oh well. 

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The issue with green speeds is that if Black Mesa were to have them run daily at 10+ then the opposite complaint would be registered -- that the greens are too fast for the existing contours you face when playing there.

I have never seen the greens at Black Mesa as being slow -- they have from the multiple times I have played the course (usually during the high season when golf can be reasonably played) been appropriately paced.

Candidly, too many courses with extensive contouring need to follow that example because golf should be a game of skill and not of putt-putt dimensions.

[Bill_McBride]

Matt, this was a maintenance timing issue that slowed the greens down to 5-6.  I'd like to play there with stimps 9 or thereabouts.  Agree that > 10 it gets too wild.

[Pat Brockwell]

Bill, Thanks for visiting us this spring.  It's great to get your impressions now vs four years ago.  Our target green speed is 9 to 10, and we tend to be closer to 9 than 10.  If we go faster than 10 the complaints are play is slow and the greens are over the top.  Next visit come during the growing season.  September 15 to the end of October is my favorite season.  If you like wind, today was stellar.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, I had a great time, thanks!  We were a bit early, not really complaining about the slow greens, I know the timing was not good.

Funny, but the greens were faster on Monday when I had 79, and slower (6 3 putts) on Wednesday when I had 91. 

Just kidding!  You guys have a marvelous place there and it is in great condition.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

If you had to decide upon the best par-3, par-4 and par-5 at BM what holes would they be ?

[Bill_McBride]

Best par 3 - tie between #4 and #11, love those box canyon holes.

Best par 4 - #14.   "How do I love thee (or play thee?)?  Let me count the ways."  There are so many options off that tee.   Runner up - #7 or #17.

Best par 5 - no doubt #3.   Pat's crew has cleaned up the bottom of the wash in front of the green so it's no longer as hazardous, but it still makes the third shot interesting.  #16 - green too severe, second landing area dicey.  #6 - hard to hit the second shot far enough left.  #13 - runner up I guess.

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