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David Druzisky

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The Best Flat Courses
« on: May 12, 2008, 11:23:06 AM »
Working with a club with a course on flat ground has me thinking again about the positives that result.  Primarily in being able to dictate exactly everything in the design.  Bunker position/distance, hole configuration et, and the diversity you can create.

What would be some of the finest courses on flat ground?  Ones that took full advantage of what some often think to be a huge negative.  (When I say flat, that could mean up to 2 or 3% even slope across the property or similar)  No million CY dirt moving examples allowed.

An example that comes to mind is Talking Stick North in Scottsdale.

DbD
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David Stamm

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 11:25:51 AM »
With the exception of the 16th tee, I would say Rustic Canyon. I forget the exact number, but very, very little earth was moved.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2008, 11:27:34 AM »
Royal Antwerp has no appreciable level change throughout the round. The highest points are maybe 3 feet above the norm, being rasied mounds, greens or bunkers. It is a very classy design.
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2008, 11:28:47 AM »
Royal Mid-Surrey also has no appreciable change of level. It's not a great course, but there are some excellent holes within the round.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 11:47:41 AM »
Karsten at ASU, Rawls at Texas Tech are 2 more flat courses built on veritable nothingness.

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Jason Connor

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 12:30:45 PM »
Rawls and Purgatory (Noblesville, IN).


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Kalen Braley

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 12:32:23 PM »
Gotta throw TOC in here.  The ultimate flattish course where nary a spoonful of dirt was moved right?   ;)
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CJ Carder

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 12:34:32 PM »
Would Pinehurst #2 qualify?  Aside from the slope up #13 and down #14, the only other real slope on the course is the tee shot on #4 and perhaps #5.  There is the uphill 18th, but that hole is all about the 2nd shot anyway.
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Bart Bradley

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 12:43:54 PM »
Harbor Town seems pretty flat and is ok ;)
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Paul Saathoff

Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 12:50:07 PM »
Easy.  My old home, Yule GC in Small Town USA, Alexadria IN.  Flatness at it finest.  A Hank Culp designed masterpiece.  haha.

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Bart Bradley

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2008, 12:53:25 PM »
Quote from: Paul Saathoff on May 12, 2008, 12:50:07 PM
Easy.  My old home, Yule GC in Small Town USA, Alexadria IN.  Flatness at it finest.  A Hank Culp designed masterpiece.  haha.



Paul:

Just about any course in the northern 2/3 of IN is pretty flat (with a few exceptions)...My father currently lives in Gaston...very close to Alex...I grew up in Ft. Wayne ...very flat.

Bart
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RJ_Daley

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 12:56:23 PM »
CC of Charleston is on a flat riverside land with a lot of river dredge fill.  Raynor got some good template holes manufactured with piling up green pad platforms, and mound and bunker scoop and fills.  
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Tim Leahy

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2008, 01:13:50 PM »
Riverdale Dunes outside of Denver and Empire Lakes near San Bernardino, Ca come to mind as tracks that are very good built on relatively flat land.
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Jimmy Muratt

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2008, 01:28:19 PM »
Chechessee Creek is an excellent golf course on a site with something like 5 feet of movement.  With the strategically placed bunkers and unique raised green complexes, there is plenty going on that the course doesn't feel "flat". 
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Carl Rogers

Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2008, 03:44:26 PM »
Tom D's Riverfront in Suffolk, VA has very little in the way cumulative elevation change though there is some movement from tee to green on each hole.  This subtle movement is carefully crafted golfing wise.
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Rob_Waldron

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 04:02:28 PM »
Pine Tree GC, Dick Wilson's gem in Boynton Beach Florida has always been considered one of the best "Flat" courses in the Country.
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henrye

Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 04:07:02 PM »
Walton Heath strikes me as pretty flat and minimalist - and a great course to boot.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2008, 04:13:14 PM »
Pensacola Country Club is rather flat, located as it is on the shore of the bay.  Before Jerry Pate dug a series of lakes for drainage and used the sandy spoil to raise the fairways 18" it was REALLY flat!

Here's MY HOME COURSE so you can see what I'm talking about:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcpcc.html
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 09:32:36 PM by Bill_McBride »
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Brad Klein

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2008, 04:19:00 PM »
Harbour Town had four feet of fall on it, which was twice as much as TPC Sawgrass-Players Stadium. Rawls Course at Texas Tech had just as little. You can't get any flatter than that.
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John Burzynski

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2008, 04:37:08 PM »
Quote from: Bart Bradley on May 12, 2008, 12:53:25 PM
Quote from: Paul Saathoff on May 12, 2008, 12:50:07 PM
Easy.  My old home, Yule GC in Small Town USA, Alexadria IN.  Flatness at it finest.  A Hank Culp designed masterpiece.  haha.



Paul:

Just about any course in the northern 2/3 of IN is pretty flat (with a few exceptions)...My father currently lives in Gaston...very close to Alex...I grew up in Ft. Wayne ...very flat.

Bart

Yup, not too many courses with hills up here, unless they were made with a bulldozer.  There are a few that seem to have been cut from the natural land that have rolling hills, but they are few and far between.
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Chuck Brown

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2008, 05:17:30 PM »
Colt's Country Club of Detroit would be high on my list. 

Pine Tree in FL, mentioned above, is another.

It seems to me that there are a handful of heathland courses around London, in addition to Walton Heath and Royal Mid-Surrey, as mentioned above.
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Dan Herrmann

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2008, 05:24:09 PM »
David Druzisky,
What's your opinion on what Strantz did at Bulls Bay in SC?  Very flat land near the ocean, but they built something of a mountain.   I think it works well in terms of fun and challenge, but it's the antipathy of minimalism.
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David Druzisky

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Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2008, 07:02:40 PM »
Dan,

I have not seen stranz's work at Bulls bay, but by the sounds of it is not what I am askig for.

Rob w posted about Wilsons Pine Tree and I too I have heard it is a great example of flat done well.  Weeds work there looks good too.

The flat property allows you almost entirely a clean canvas.  If it remains generally flat, how good can it be when you can determine bunkers, routing etc, without much regard for the third dimension initially 
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Andy Troeger

Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2008, 07:53:55 PM »
I have to admit I haven't seen a flat course that didn't require a fair amount of effort to make it interesting. I'm not sure how much dirt was moved at Harbour Town and Sawgrass, both are excellent now but seem to have required some effort especially with Sawgrass. I could see Harbour Town not having required much earth moving, but it had water and trees to create some interest. Both IMO are significantly better than Talking Stick North although I know some of you would go the other way on that one.

Regarding northern Indiana...yes there are a lot of flat golf courses (most of which aren't very good), but the interesting ones having a fair amount of terrain. South Bend Country Club is probably the best example; its anything but flat. Long Beach has some terrain, as does Blackthorn and Rock Hollow. The flattest good one is probably Warren, but even with that one there's about six holes on rolling property.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Best Flat Courses
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2008, 09:38:37 PM »
Quote from: Rob_Waldron on May 12, 2008, 04:02:28 PM

Pine Tree GC, Dick Wilson's gem in Boynton Beach Florida has always been considered one of the best "Flat" courses in the Country.

Ben Hogan is quoted as saying that Pine Tree was the best flat course in America
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