[Ran Morrissett]

the 17th  at Sand Hills GC?

What say you?

One offers a far greater range of recovery shots (or at least attempts at recovery shots) – and the other has water 

Played in a similar strength wind as today, does anyone doubt that more pros would miss the smaller target in Nebraska, hence bringing in the added theater of the art of recovery (in addition to the drama from the tee)?

On the other side of the ledger, I grant that the putting surface at TPC is very well conceived and watching the drama play out slowly along the ground is a wonderful attribute.

Cheers,

P.S. No doubt still bitter about my duece with the hickories at SHGC that sealed his fate that very fine afternoon, Pat Mucci need not respond 

[John Kirk]

Ran,

I considered beginning a thread on this subject, because the tournament ended in anticlimactic fashion.  The 17th at Sand Hills is a fine comparison hole to choose, and I agree that it would likely make a better penultimate tournament hole. 

Today at the TPC, watching the balls trickle down to the hole was fun, but it seemed most players in contention were compelled to aim left, resulting in a rather repetitive set of two putt pars.  Earlier in the day there were a few birdies, perhaps due to a stronger left to right wind.

To summarize, the 17th hole was moderately exciting during the fourth round, but anticlimactic in the playoff.

[Kyle Henderson]

I'll let you know after I've played them both. Sand Hills awaits in June.

[Scott Szabo]

I'll let you know after I've played them both. Sand Hills awaits in June.

lucky dog   

[Bob_Huntley]

I would much rather chance my hand at Sand Hills than that at TPC.

Water is the ultimate penalty.


Bob

[Ian Andrew]

Since the question is not which is the better hole.....

The TPC provides more drama, it's in the players head all round, no lead is safe, everything builds to that one single shot athe ideal point of the round.

[Alan Carter]

Since the question is not which is the better hole.....

The TPC provides more drama, it's in the players head all round, no lead is safe, everything builds to that one single shot athe ideal point of the round.

I agree with Ian.

The question is not which hole is better!!!

TPC takes it!

[Mike Nuzzo]

The playoff tee shot was quite dramatic, but after Goydos hit the drink it was over.  At Sand Hills Sergio would have had to made that putt, especially if Goydos made a great recovery - or even a hole out 2.

[Kyle Henderson]

I would much rather chance my hand at Sand Hills than that at TPC.

Water is the ultimate penalty.


Bob

White stakes are the ultimate penalty (in golf, not life). Water hazards can be played out of on occasion...

[George Blunt]

Ran,

I thought you going to ask,

"or the 17th at Royal Sydney"

Surely it warrants consideration post Ross Watson re-design.

Someone shoud post some photos.....

George

[Tom_Doak]

George:

That must be some redesign ... I barely remember the Royal Sydney hole "before".  What the heck did they do?

[George Blunt]

Tom,

It is a bit of a private joke with Ran.  They took the worst hole on the course, and made it worse.  Mike C can confirm.  Hope all is well with you.  Let me know when you plan to visit me in India!

Cheers,

George

 

[Ran Morrissett]

The outcome of most shots on the seventeenth at TPC is black and white; there are more gray outcomes at Sand Hills with balls potentially getting stuck in scrub or very akward lies or whatever. The two holes produce outcomes with their own distinct set of fears, which is one of the reasons that golf is such a great game.

Though both holes are great spectacles, I still think one leads to greater golf qualities, especially if you subscribe to the ideal that you should be able to finish more rounds than not with the same ball (i.e. hitting your ball and going and hitting again is important).

Tom,

The power of GolfClubAtlas  was never more evident than when George had to flee under the cloak of darkness from Melbourne to India based on remarks he made in this Discussion Group re: the Royal Sydney re-do.

Cheers,

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

12 at Augusta National provides the most in all of golf. When the wind blows the 17th at TPC provides risk hard to find so late in a round.

[tlavin]

Like some of the earlier posters, the 17th at Sand Hills is a superior hole to play, but in terms of do or die tournament golf, the 17th at Sawgrass is very tough to beat.  The 12th at Augusta is very similar in some ways, because the winds can be murderous and because the green is like a trampoline and it can be nigh impossible to hold a shot that hits the green.  12 at Augusta is tricky, demanding and perilous.  All of those adjectives apply to 17 at Sawgrass, but the fact that it's the next-to-last hole and that it's followed by an even tougher hole makes it the clear drama winner, even though it's more tricked-up than tricky.

[Rich Goodale]

Ran

"Drama" is probably not the appropriate word.  Drama implies an audience, and no matter how good SH #17 might be, whatever happens there happens in a virtual vaccuum, and mostly to mere amateurs, or worse.  Whatever happens at #17 TPC happens in front of the whole golfing world, with the greatest players in the world on the stage.

What was your point?

Rich

[Ian Andrew]

Ran,

I respectfully disagree with your notion of recovery making more drama. The opportunity for recovery reduces the pressure of the situation and lessens the drama of the tee shot.

The 17th at Sand Hills becomes one of many great holes where good shots are rewarded and misses require a great recovery to save par or even bogie. It is one of many holes, none creating greater drama than any of the others. The 17th at Sawgrass is a completely different animal. You miss – there is no recovery – you simply have to swing until you can make the shot. That is pressure – and for the people watching – that is great theater. I happen to dislike this hole type immensely, but in the context of the Players Championship it is brilliant. All of players know that a great round can go to the 17th to die and they obsess about that one short iron shot all round long. The “additional” pressure of having to hit that do or die shot late in the round knowing that if they miss – they have no way to make up the strokes.

I would argue that this is one of the few points in the golf schedule where you find you have to watch since no round is safe until that hole is played.

[BCrosby]

I don't think anyone disagrees that the 17th at TPC provides high drama. Maybe the highest in golf for the pros.

The more interesting question is at what cost? Is it good architecture?

I think not. I've seen too many non-pros play it.

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would much rather chance my hand at Sand Hills than that at TPC.

Water is the ultimate penalty.

Bob,

I'm not so sure that I agree with that.

Hitting into the water leaves you with no alternative shot, you just take your penalty, take the appropriate drop and reload.

Hitting into gnarly surrounds seals your fate.
Once you attempt to strike your ball, you have NO viable alternative, thus, you must hack your way to the green.  Unplayables will do you little good.

While # 17 at TPC is a simple pass/fail test, there are worse fates.

I can and have seen golfers taking huge numbers because they didn't elect an unplayable after the shot that got them in trouble, choosing to continue on their path to destruction and telephone numbers.

[TEPaul]

I think TPC's 17th provides way more drama.

I hate suggesting redesign but I think the 17th at TPC would be even better if that bunker wasn't there. Under the kind of tournament conditions we saw on Sunday with that bunker to carry too to that Sunday pin no player in his right mind is tempted to go at the entire right side. Garcia's shot which was amazing seemed to be almost an accident. I don't think he even realized what had happened to his ball until he was about twenty yards off the tee and the cheering wasn't stopping.

[Patrick_Mucci]

the 17th  at Sand Hills GC?

Ran,

From the top tee, I believe that the 17th at SH is more intimidating and the green, far, far more difficult to hit.

While # 17 at TPC is devilish, # 17 at SH from the top tee is diabolical.[/color]

What say you?

One offers a far greater range of recovery shots (or at least attempts at recovery shots) – and the other has water 

At TPC it's a simple, pass/fail shot.
It doesn't matter if you miss the green by two inches, two feet, two yards or twenty yards, the penalty is the same.

Not so with # 17 at SH.
At # 17 at SH there's an incremental penalty.
The more you miss the green, the more difficult the recovery.[/color]

Played in a similar strength wind as today, does anyone doubt that more pros would miss the smaller target in Nebraska, hence bringing in the added theater of the art of recovery (in addition to the drama from the tee)?

Length plays a huge factor, as does green size.

130 versus 150 vs 180.[/color]

On the other side of the ledger, I grant that the putting surface at TPC is very well conceived and watching the drama play out slowly along the ground is a wonderful attribute.

P.S. No doubt still bitter about my duece with the hickories at SHGC that sealed his fate that very fine afternoon, Pat Mucci need not respond 


That was one of the most disappointing golfing moments of my life.

Watching that wretched putt that you hit, far too hard and off line, deflect off of that pebble and into the hole was ........ painful.

What made it more so was that I hit a far better putt that rimmed out.

There was no doubt in my mind, when you hit your first putt, that it was going a good six feet past the hole, which meant that you'd probably be going into the 18th hole all square, or one up at the very best, and, there was no doubt in my mind as to what would happen on # 18.

Seeing you stroke/strike that putt brought joy to my heart until that boulder deflected your ball into the hole.

I can remember exactly where I was standing when you hit that bullet.
How I began licking my chops at the prospect of winning the hole, only to have my hopes dashed by being on the wrong end of "the rub of the green"

But, that round, a sub-par round was the begining of my comeback in golf, despite the calamatous disaster on # 17.

Hence, I have a love/hate relationship with that hole, or whomever littered that green with pebbles.[/color]

[BCrosby]

I love this quote from John Huggan:

"Add in the inherent daftness and lowbrow appeal of the island green 17th hole, a circus-like golfing gimmick where any pretence at sophistication is notably absent, and the Players won't be making any steps up in status any time soon."

Bob

[Matt_Cohn]

Mr. Crosby,

I just looked and found that you haven't posted on my "So what should they do with #17 at Sawgrass?" thread. Would enjoy seeing your opinion.

[Rich Goodale]

I love this quote from John Huggan:

"Add in the inherent daftness and lowbrow appeal of the island green 17th hole, a circus-like golfing gimmick where any pretence at sophistication is notably absent, and the Players won't be making any steps up in status any time soon."

Bob

Bob

Don't take Huggan too seriously.  He is a prototypically dour Scot who despises all things American except $$$$$$.

[BCrosby]

Rich -

As you probably guessed, I was particularly taken by his reference to the hole's "lowbrow appeal". Only a British commentator would dare say something like that, which is why Huggan deserves all the $$$$$ he can get.

Bob

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