[Jeff_Brauer]

Stemming from my comments on the TPC thread........and not including guys who have done just a few courses.

Most successful gca's do tend to get in a style.  Who has been the least repetitive of the architects we discuss here?

[Tommy Williamsen]

If we are talking about all time architects, I would put forth Herbert Fowler.  I have played maybe a dozen of his courses from Westward Ho! to Walton Heath to the odd Bull's Bay on the northwest coast of Wales.  If you did not know it, you would never have guessed that they were designed by the same person.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

Can I place any wagers on who Wayne Morrison or Paul Turner or Phil Young might vote for? 

[Matt_Cohn]

George Crump?

Err...

This is actually a really hard question.

[John Kirk]

Tom Doak

Lost Dunes
Cape Kidnapper's
Ballyneal
The Rawls Course at Texas Tech
Stone Eagle
Rock Creek Cattle Company
Old Macdonald

Different layouts, different environments, different everything.  I think Tom wins this category in a walk.

[Kyle Henderson]

During his talk with GCAers at Morgan Creek last November, Kyle Phillips talked about his desire to do every course in a different style so much as the environment will allow for it.

First-hand, I can attest that his work at Morgan Creek is certainly different from his work with Trent Jones Jr. (e.g. Bodega Harbour, Cabo Real ). Has anyone played The Grove, Kingsbarn, The Dundonald Course, and/or the Cal Club or Del Paso CC renovations? Are they diverse?

[Jed Peters]

During his talk with GCAers at Morgan Creek last November, Kyle Phillips talked about his desire to do every course in a different style so much as the environment will allow for it.

First-hand, I can attest that his work at Morgan Creek is certainly different from his work with Trent Jones Jr. (e.g. Bodega Harbour, Cabo Real ). Has anyone played The Grove, Kingsbarn, The Dundonald Course, and/or the Cal Club or Del Paso CC renovations? Are they diverse?

Kyle certainly would be one to look at.

Example: He did Mackenzie at Granite Bay (when it opened, it's since been drastically changed), Did a fairly "authentic" renovation at Cal club (Macan and Mackenzie), a forested, tree-ed in course at Incline village, a heathland course at Morgan Creek, a parkland course at Del Paso (not the style he wanted, but what the membership demanded), and Cabo Real, a total resort style course.

I think the Grove and Kingsbarns are pretty much like Morgan Creek though, at least what I've seen in photos.

I would also nominate Jack Nicklaus' group as well--they've done some pretty different courses, in many different styles....

[Kyle Henderson]

I would also nominate Jack Nicklaus' group as well--they've done some pretty different courses, in many different styles....

Isn't using a group cheating in this exercise? The questions asks which golf course architect shows/showed the most diversity in his (or her) designs.

Lawyers...

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

"Can I place any wagers on who Wayne Morrison or Paul Turner or Phil Young might vote for?"

Take Tom's wager!  Email me what you want me to say... 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phil,

Actually, of the old guys, your horse would be a good candidate in this derby!

[Phil_the_Author]

Jeff,

While that is true, according to Tom I'm too prejudiced to be able to make that observation! 

[wsmorrison]

Tom Doak,

On the contrary, I think Flynn got a bit repetitive when it comes to bunkering his par 3s where he often had a single bunker at green height on one side and multiple bunkers below the green on the opposite side.

Flynn also liked to include a hole concept like the 12th at Pine Valley (which he built and likely assisted in the design details, though the concept was Crump).  His variations included using topography or water instead of bunkering and was found at Boca Raton North and South, Cherry Hills, Cleveland Heights, Denver CC, Glen View Club, Huntingdon Valley, Indian Creek, Lancaster CC (NLE), Merion East, Philadelphia Country, Plymouth CC, Rolling Green, Sunnybrook, TCC Brookline, TCC Pepper Pike, USNA and Yorktown CC River Course.

There are two other aspect of Flynn's designs that I would consider repetitive.  That would be how innovative they were and How great they remain today.  Flynn's innovations include construction (Indian Creek and Cascades are just two of many outstanding and poorly understood examples) agronomy and turf, use of perspective, naturalism, interplays of slope on greens rather than contours and shot testing.

[Mike Hendren]

Wouldn't SFGC alone suggest Tillie?

Great thread.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Art Hills I think any major architect like Art who has very different types of clients over a large number of different type fact situations. There are a number of professionals who are deep into their careers whose firms are like Art's.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I second Tommy Williamsen's view about Fowler. The only problem is that it is far from certain where Fowler ends and Simpson starts. I'd also put in a word for Abercromby, or at least those courses that I know. Isn't there some doubt about who did what at SFGC?

[Adam Clayman]

Natural architecture would be my answer as to what is likely the most unique.

[cary lichtenstein]

I pose this question:

Is it good to be less repetitive? Change for the sake of change?

There is nothing wrong in my opinion of adapting your style to the particular land rather than changing your style. I would think that most developers select an architect based on the style he did at one or more courses they thought were great.

If I like Doak's big harry bunkers with steep faces and he wants to do Engh style muscle bunkers, I would have a problem with that.

[Norbert P]

The late great . . .  GD Muirhead

[David Stamm]

Wouldn't SFGC alone suggest Tillie?

Great thread.

Michael, great call. Tillie is the one that sprang to mind when I read the thread. Very diverse body of work. I think MacKenzie's work varied from region to region. His courses in Auz were different from his courses in Cal, which were different from his Mid West courses, which were then different from his UK courses. Of course, this can be attributed to the individuals that carried out the work in the perspective areas. But if I had to choose one, I would say Tillie.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Cary,

Good question, but it may not be change for the sake of change.

In theory, a gca looks at the client, the site, etc.  He also looks at long term trends - like water reductions, economic climate, new construction technology, new maintenance equipment, environmental issues, etc. to come up with a design solution.  Heck, I guess most of us even look at trends.  A few set them!

Given how things slowly change over time, we would expect designs to change over time, and I think Art Hills is a good example of that.  He maintains most of the traditional ideals, but we do see change in his work.

Hurdzan is another. Went from mundane (sorry Mike) to spectacular and also to the environmental side of design, sometimes all in one, sometimes at the same time period of work but on different courses, etc.

JN is a third who has modified his style, IMHO, perhaps more than an RTJ did in his years.

While some of it is self imposed desire to try different styles, some of it is site specific and some is part of overall conditions we are designing under.

[Tony_Chapman]

Jeff -- I'd like you to chime in. How has your style changed over the years? Having seen how much you grew up from Highlands in Lincoln to Sand Creek Station in Newton (and, of course, lots of stuff in between), how do you keep from coming "repetitive"?

Cary -- You should see Mr. Engh's first crack at a routing. He did six holes at York CC in Nebraska (my home course). He used all of three bunkers in those six holes and routed some wonderful holes around a creek in a very cramped piece of property. He certainly has grown up!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tony,

Great question. Part of the answer is in the post above - I am using smaller bunkers and fewer of them in response to new bunker technology. I am using fewer mounds and extending those that are built to where the skyline is less abrupt.

I started writing that Cybergolf column to flesh out what I really believed in golf design, rather than blindly doing what my old bosses did. That said, their influence was Wilson, and my influence was them, so I haven't quite moved towards any other basic style yet.  Maybe I can say I am influenced by Flynn?

The Cybergolf stuff has kept me from being as repetitive as I was.  Of all the bunker patterns, green sizes, green shapes, you name it available, I don't think I did as good a job of varying my designs as I do now.  Now, to accomplish that I have to work from both the site and a "hip pocket" list of design concepts and have also developed a few Excel charts to assure I strive for more variety in such things.  I have to tell ya, getting a computer to think like I do requires some real trickery! 

And, I know that I will take a bashing on this site for using technology assist me in avoiding the all too human tendency of repetition.  But, I think the results show that my designs are better and more varied now.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - thanks for your last two posts, really good ones. In other disciplines/art forms, it does seem that a constant or basically unchanging style is actually deemed a very good thing, i.e. an authentic and mature 'voice'.  But of course in no other art-craft is the living landscape part of the equation. How an architect balances the two aspects is maybe a defining trait (?)

Peter 

[Jay Flemma]

how about strantz?

[Garland Bayley]

When I read the subject, my thought was that minimalist gca had to be the least repetitive when performed in different locals, as opposed to framing gca when would tend to be repetitive no matter the local.

Then, I found out you were asking about people.

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