So, what should they do with #17?

[Matt_Cohn]

IF you are of the opinion that #17 at TPC Sawgrass is a bad hole, what should they do with it? A few options:

Make the island larger.
Revert to the original intended design with water only on the right.
Something else.

So, what should they do?

[John Moore II]

IMHO, the green is fine as is. Frankly, if you are a tour professional and you can't hit a PW or GW onto a green that is the size of the average house, go home; just pack up the clubs and go back home. Don't complain, just shut up and go home. And don't give me that sad arguement about not having options. I consider myself to be a pretty fair player, and I will use a non-high/lob shot maybe 1 out of 100 times from 150 yards and in; I will venture a guess that a tour pro is the same.
--And the recreational golfer who plays, just have t-shirts for sale: "I dropped two in the pond on 17 at Sawgrass"

[Tom_Doak]

I am curious how many on the board comment on #17 based on having PLAYED it, instead of just watching on TV.

I've played it a bunch of times, though the last time was 15 years ago.  The green is a shade over 8,000 square feet.  It's not too hard to hit and hold.  The times I've missed it, I missed it because I thought too much about it and choked.  That's what the hole is all about.

[Bart Bradley]

Change it?  What, are you insane...it is among the top 10 most recognizable holes in the world...they are not going to change it and they shouldn't.

Bart

[John Moore II]

The green is a shade over 8,000 square feet.  It's not too hard to hit and hold. 

Tom--well said. Not to mention, people are hitting wedges. At least someone on this site with authority in the business defends the hole as being sound test. As a side note--were you on the design team for the course?

[Tom_Doak]

Kenneth:

I started working for Mr. Dye at Long Cove in 1981, after my junior year of college.  The TPC opened in 1980, so no, I wasn't involved with the design.  However, I did get to attend the first two events held on the course in 1982-83 and walk around the course with Mr. Dye watching play, so I know a fair amount about what he was trying to do there.

[Jason Topp]

Leave it as is.  The green is big for a wedge/9 iron, especially if hit to the middle of the green by a pro. 

[Mike_Young]

make it a soil green....as a new USGA green it is not playing as a firm and fast green should play...the balls are hitting and bouncing.....a firm green can still hold a good shot....these greens are new and it may be a year or two before they hold as expected....IMHO

[Andy Troeger]

I also can't imagine why one would change that hole...even though I dumped two balls in the pond and made an 8 on my own crack at it. I still don't think its that hard, I just hit lousy shots. 

[Carl Rogers]

I think you have to separate the design for the top 200 golfers in the world from the rest of us.  For them and as theatre, it is superb. 

But unfortunately, when poorly replicated elsewhere it quickly dengenerates into cliche.

[tlavin]

I think you have to separate the design for the top 200 golfers in the world from the rest of us.  For them and as theatre, it is superb. 

But unfortunately, when poorly replicated elsewhere it quickly dengenerates into cliche.

Carl,

You're quite right; this is not a good template hole even though it works quite well in its original incarnation.

[John Moore II]

Carl--I agree with you. If a course wants an island green, it needs character, not just some dirt piled up in the middle of a puddle, which is what most of them built after TPC look like.

Terry--It can be a template hole, IF (and thats a bgi IF) it is done by a designer who is very, very good at what he does and can make it fit into the round well.

-The Island at TPC is used for strategy and closure to the round. Most are simply fluff that serve no real purpose other than to "bedazzle" a golf course.

[Ed Oden]

Personally, the 17th is not my cup of tea.  It just doesn't fit my eye.  Having said that and having played the hole, it is a mystery to me how it could get into the collective heads of all the touring pros.  Its just not that tough.  Anywhere else, a tour player with a wedge in their hands is looking to put it inside 10 feet.  Missing the green doesn't even enter their minds.  In fact, I'd guess that in an odd twist most average players are less psyched out by the 17th than the touring pros.  It is a rare "signature" hole on tour (perhaps also the 7th at Pebble?) where a 15 handicap can step to the Championship tees and genuinely say "Yeah, I can hit that shot."  Put the same guy on the next hole or the 18th at Doral or Quail or Bay Hill and he's got virtually no chance.  But ANYONE can par the 17th.  Why can't the pros? 

[Mark Smolens]

imo the hole is only difficult at that level if you try to shoot at the pin which is cut near the edge.  Why in god's name is that a requirement.  If you have your name on your bag and couldn't hit a ball into the middle of that green -- perhaps leaving you a 50 or 60 footer -- then you don't belong out there.  So suck it up and shut up.  17 at Sawgrass is as exhilirating to play as it is to watch.

[Peter Wagner]

Ernie Els made 6 on the 17th yesterday.  In an interview after his round he was asked his thoughts on the 17th hole:

"Blow it up." was his first comment.  "I just worked hard for 4.5 hours just to lose it all in one swing". "This is a dumb golf hole".

I guess it's safe to say Ernie doesn't like the 17th hole.

[John Moore II]

I think we should send Ernie Els an email from his website with all our comments, see what he says.

[Adam Clayman]

This concept of an Island type green is not new to American gca. I've seen several courses built pre-1930 where the concept was used. Eastmoreland's penultimate is but one example.

[BVince]

If the hole did not have an island green, how many PGA players would be upset not making birdie with a PW?  They are nervous, too worried about just making it on the green and choking. 

I would tell Ernie to suck it up and hit a better shot next time.

[Kirk Gill]

Sounds like the 17th is in Ernie's head.

Like it was intended to be.

[Lester George]

Leave it alone.

Lester

[Brad Klein]

Actually, the green surface is 4,100 square feet. That's especially small in a crosswind.

I think the hole is perfect because there's no other shot like it on the golf course; it's the only one with no option or bail-out, and it gets you stewing and anticipating the entire round. There is no hole in all of golf that weighs so heavily psychologically during an entire round.

[Jim Nugent]

Having said that and having played the hole, it is a mystery to me how it could get into the collective heads of all the touring pros.  Its just not that tough.  Anywhere else, a tour player with a wedge in their hands is looking to put it inside 10 feet.  Missing the green doesn't even enter their minds.   

Lots of people believe that, but it's a myth.  Take Tiger.  From 125 to 150 yards out, he has hit the green 70% of the time this year.  He has averaged 23 feet from the pin, when hitting from that distance.  

The world's best player misses the green 30% of the time from that distance.  When he does hit the green, he is 23 feet from the pin on average.  

I dislike this hole.  The risk/reward ratio is out of whack.  Without hitting a poor shot, touring pro's can and do make 8 there.  That's what happens when you build a hole that is 100% penal.  

[Dan Kelly]

I dislike this hole.  The risk/reward ratio is out of whack.  Without hitting a poor shot, touring pro's can and do make 8 there.

I don't accept your premise.

I don't think any touring pro would make 8 at TPC 17 -- if he aimed for dead-center (aim and distance) of that green every time he played it.

And I don't think Tiger Woods would miss 10% of the greens from 125-150 if he aimed dead center at every green. Surely the reason he misses most of the greens he misses is that he takes too-dead aim at those edge-of-the-green PGA Tour hole locations.

Seems to me that TPC 17 is a pure and wonderful example of risk/reward architecture. The fact that there's greater risk than reward, even for the touring pros, strikes me as a very fine thing.

[Brad Klein]

Jim,

there is a very small ratio of potential reward to likely risk. Just ask Sean O'Hair. It's a very fair hole -- you either reduce the margin of error by playing for the center or increase them by playing sides.

[Mike Hendren]

Clearly they should build a shoulder fairway to the left big enough to land a 747 that funnels the ball onto the green, with the green reshaped as a biarritz and oriented toward the shoulder fairway to yield a reverse redan / biarritz.   

That or put a 25 yards wide collar bunker around the entire green and add a nice thumbprint at the front of the green.

That Pete Dye, what a chump.

Mike