Pacifc Dunes & Pebble Beach - Opening Stretches

[Tim Bert]

I'm pulling this off of the MPCC Shore Course feedback thread since this isn't what Bob Huntley was looking for.

I posted yesterday to Tom Huckaby that I think Pacific Dunes is a superior course to Pebble Beach.  I know that many disagree, but I think at least a few agree.  I was thinking about it a bit more yesterday, and I even did my mental hole by hole match play.  I'm too embarassed to post the results here as no one will ever give any credibility to one of my responses on this site in the future.  Suffice to say, I think Pacific Dunes is substantially better.  While I might have been stretching to say I'd rather play it 10 more times before I return to Pebble for #2, I would play at least 7 and maybe 8 of every ten rounds at Pacific Dunes - length of round and cost excluded from the discussion.
_______

I would pose the following question to those that disagree with me.  Not looking to pick a fight - looking to be educated since I've only played Pebble once.

Forget the entire hole-by-hole match.  JUST FOCUS ON THE FIRST 6 HOLES.  How does Pacific Dunes not sweep this entire stretch of holes 6-0?  I could see arguments on #4 and #6, though I prefer Pacific in each instance.  I'm not sure the others are close.

Let's just say for me that once Pacific Dunes swept the first 6, it was very difficult for Pebble to make up ground in my head.

Please discuss.

[Tom Huckaby]

For the sake of argument I could give PD a 6-0 sweep there and still say PB is the better overall course.

I also don't think this is the best way to evaluate golf courses.  One must take the WHOLE into consideration.

But if it turns you on, hell let's play this illogical game:

1 - PD wins
2 - PD wins
3 - PB wins
4 - half
5 - PB wins
6 - half (but talk about apples to oranges!)

So I have it all square...

TH

[Tim Bert]

Thanks for entertaining me.  I agree you should take the whole into consideration, and not necessarily in imaginary match play games.  The problem for me is I've been thinking about it for two weeks since the trip, and I can't come up with any way in which Pebble wins.  So, I tried this approached.  And it got whooped worse than I expected. 

I'm most surprised on #1, #3, and #5 on your analysis.  I figured some folks would jump in on Pebble #1 winning not because it is a strong hole but because I've heard a lot fo criticism of PD #1.  I actually like the hole and I've enjoyed it more with each trip.  #3 I just don't see.  I think PD #3 is an outstanding par 5 and a great introduction to the ocean ahead.  I think #3 at Pebble is good but not great.  As for #5, well let's just say #5 at PD has become my favorite par 3 of the bunch with repeated plays.  I think it is a fantastic hole with good options for a hole of that length and I still can't figure out where the green begins and end and what shape it is.  #5 at PB was a nice view but didn't jump off the page as spectacular.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

You can't tell me you expected anything different here.

You and I are just on wildly different pages about this.  So best to just agree to disagree.

But be patient, others will likely step in on your side... Bashing PB and wildly supporting PD is a very common theme in this forum.

TH

[Tim Bert]

Tim:

You can't tell me you expected anything different here.

You and I are just on wildly different pages about this.  So best to just agree to disagree.

But be patient, others will likely step in on your side... Bashing PB and wildly supporting PD is a very common theme in this forum.

TH

Hi Tom -

The only thing I expect is a little commentary on the hole by hole.  I'd like to understand whay you think #3, #5, and #6 at Pebble are better holes.

I know we aren't going to change one another's overall opinion because we are so far on the extreme, but I would genuinely like to understand the Pebble advocate perspective.

I'm not looking for others to come to my side of the discussion.  I'd prefer if I only got pro-Pebble feedback.  I'm not looking to incite an argument; I'm looking to understand a viewpoint that is so different than mine.

And I'll say it again, but I'm not bashing Pebble.  I'm not one of the guys saying it is a muni course with a couple spectacular holes.  The opposite it true.  I thought it was a cool experience and a great golf course.  At the same time, Pacific Dunes remains one of my 2 or 3 favorites I've ever played and I think it is that good.

It's a little uncomfortable even raising this discussion because I know I get automatically thrown into this gca Doak-lover / Pebble-basher bucket for even trying to have an open conversation about it.  That's not my intent.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:

Fair enough.  It may not be your intent, but the result sure comes out that way!

In any case, apologies for the ill-temper, but this has been discussed SOOOOOOOOOO many times in here, that it's frustrating.  It is indeed very very common to bash PB, and choose whatever course is one's favorite and list the reasons why it's superior.  Then I (or a few others) come on and defend PB, and we argue for awhile, and no consensus or movement or learning is achieved....

So here we go again.  I know you are new to it, just bear with me and my frustrations.

I think it's odd and silly to go numbered hole by hole.  Oh it is good fun, and this "match play" thing is OK in just a fun respect... but as an attempt to really ascertain the better golf course?  Pretty worthless if you ask me.

So what's the point?

But since you asked, and you are so nice while I am such a snit, here are some thoughts on each hole>

1:  I am one who really likes the hole at PD.  PB I like also - many bash it and I just scratch my head - but 1 PD is quirky and weird and in that respect a perfect introduction to a pretty quirky course.  I like it.

2 - Great hole at PD, not so great (but not nearly so HORRIBLE as many in here maintain) at PB.

3 - I too like the hole at PD and it has a wonderful green.  I agree with your sentiments.  I just like PB MORE (although the addition of the new bunkers may change this).  I love the risk/reward tee shot and the way the hole turns and then slaps you in the face with the famous 17th and ocean beyond....

4 - both great holes to me.

5 - Oceans in play are powerful to me.  Outside of that, I see no huge great worth in 5 PD.  It's a good hole, just not great.  Heck neither is 5 PB.  I just prefer it on the overall.

6 - complete apples and oranges.  6 PD is one of my favorite short par 4s on the planet.  But 6 PB is so powerful, majestic, awe-inspiring that I can't have it lose.

TH

[Rich Goodale]

Huck

Bookmark this.  I agree with you!

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck

Bookmark this.  I agree with you!

Rich

MY DAY IS MADE!!!!

Will we now get swarms of locusts? 

 

[tlavin]

This subject has been approached by a bunch of different angles, but if the question is simply which course has the better opening stretch (arbitrarily 1-5), I'd say Pacific wins in a walk.  But the next stretch at Pebble is impossible to beat, because 6-10 are among the best holes in America.  As a pair of finishers, 17 and 18 are well above average, with the scenery and the history of the place, so Pebble would probably "win" that comparison.  Are we then left with comparing 11-15 to determine the winner?  If that isn't a stupid way of comparing courses, it might take some time for me to come up with a stupider one.  Overall, I think Pacific has a much more consistent, hole-by-hole level of excellence, both in terms of the architecture and the aesthetics, but Pebble Beach has the historical advantage and it has the best stretch of holes in 6-10.  I rate Pacific higher, but the ineffable quality of decades of memory is a tough thing to compete with.

[Tom Huckaby]

This subject has been approached by a bunch of different angles, but if the question is simply which course has the better opening stretch (arbitrarily 1-5), I'd say Pacific wins in a walk.  But the next stretch at Pebble is impossible to beat, because 6-10 are among the best holes in America.  As a pair of finishers, 17 and 18 are well above average, with the scenery and the history of the place, so Pebble would probably "win" that comparison.  Are we then left with comparing 11-15 to determine the winner?  If that isn't a stupid way of comparing courses, it might take some time for me to come up with a stupider one.  Overall, I think Pacific has a much more consistent, hole-by-hole level of excellence, both in terms of the architecture and the aesthetics, but Pebble Beach has the historical advantage and it has the best stretch of holes in 6-10.  I rate Pacific higher, but the ineffable quality of decades of memory is a tough thing to compete with.

Terry, did anyone ever tell you you are a very wise man?

Probably not.     Well, I'll start.  You are a very wise man.   The reasoning to me is perfect, and if I come out rating Pebble higher, well... it's likely because I do give more value to decades of memory, among potential other reasons.  In any case I find nothing to argue about with you.

 

[Tim Bert]

This subject has been approached by a bunch of different angles, but if the question is simply which course has the better opening stretch (arbitrarily 1-5), I'd say Pacific wins in a walk.  But the next stretch at Pebble is impossible to beat, because 6-10 are among the best holes in America.  As a pair of finishers, 17 and 18 are well above average, with the scenery and the history of the place, so Pebble would probably "win" that comparison.  Are we then left with comparing 11-15 to determine the winner?  If that isn't a stupid way of comparing courses, it might take some time for me to come up with a stupider one.  Overall, I think Pacific has a much more consistent, hole-by-hole level of excellence, both in terms of the architecture and the aesthetics, but Pebble Beach has the historical advantage and it has the best stretch of holes in 6-10.  I rate Pacific higher, but the ineffable quality of decades of memory is a tough thing to compete with.

Terry, did anyone ever tell you you are a very wise man?

Probably not.     Well, I'll start.  You are a very wise man.   The reasoning to me is perfect, and if I come out rating Pebble higher, well... it's likely because I do give more value to decades of memory, among potential other reasons.  In any case I find nothing to argue about with you.

 

In my warped world PD wins #6.  My opinion is exactly the same as Tom's but in the other way.  PB #6 is an absolutely great par 5, and the views are untouchable.  But PD#6 is one of my favorite short par 4s anywhere.  As for #7, I call it a draw.  Hard to argue with PB #7, but PD #7 is one of the best long par 4s I've played.  Did I mention that it follows one of the best short par 4s I've played?

#8, 9, 10 - no argument here.

In the quiet Pebble stretch of 11-15, you've got PD #11 and #13.  I've heard people discount #11 at PD before, but not having finally played #7 at PB (and also having about 45 minutes to sit on the tee and then chiop around the green since I was the last group off and we were waiting) I don't understand why #11 PD gets knocked as average except for the view.  I think it is all-world.

As for the decades of history, Tom raised a god point that isn't a factor for me.  He had an opportunity to grow up in closer proximity and as he phrased it has had significant life-events associated with the area and course.  I would give crazy bonus credit for that type of thing, just as I do to the average course I played for years in Hartford where I was a member of a men's club - just as I do to my current home club.  I just don't get excited enough (everyon PLEASE SIT DOWN) about Tom Watson chipping in on a hole to supply bonus credit.

The course stands on its own merits, without decades of history to back it up.  Here's hoping that my kids and grandkids can have this debate and stand a chance to win once PD has a little history.  Future generations might actually think Tiger Woods can play golf and Michael Jordan was pretty darn good at basketball as well!

Anyway - I'm enjoying the opinions.

[Jordan Wall]

#6 could be the best hole at Pebble...

[Tim Bert]

Jordan - #6 at Pacific Dunes might be the best hole at Pebble as well.

OK, I'm sorry.  I'm going back and looking at photos of both courses.  I am a Pacific Dunes junkie.  Let me go ahead and admit I've got a serious problem.  I have trouble visiting only once every other year in order to accommodate other trips.

Jordan, let me know if you'd like a complimentary greatest hits photo set of the course, and I'll send you the best I've got from three trips out there.  You too will be planning your trip to Bandon ASAP.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - fair enough, it's all good.  I will admit I do have a personal bias for PB, but I'll also say to me it wins even without that.  Which of course is absolutely no knock on PD, although given posts in the Stone Eagle thread, likely is gonna merit me some more name calling from Tom Doak.
 

[Tim Bert]

Tom

As I said to you in IM the other day, we're all super-spoiled to get to play any of these courses anyway.  Truth be told, who cares which is better. 

At the same time, discussing it helps me re-live the experience and pretend I'm playing the courses every day.  My wife doesn't want to hear about it, so I have to use you as my sounding board.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - that's cool.  Just thank your lucky stars that the the designer of Pebble Beach is long dead and thus does not participate in this forum!

[Tim Bert]

Just be thankful he is long dead, so you can give it extra bonus points for history.   

[Tom Huckaby]

Just be thankful he is long dead, so you can give it extra bonus points for history.   

Touche!

But my friend, if one feels it, it counts.  Don't tell me you too are a soul-less Muccian!  Not the guy who played CPC 16 so bravely....
 

[Tim Bert]

My man - a good 50% of my opinion of Pacific Dunes is feel.  You and I share completely the same opinion about evaluating the totality of the experience, surroundings, fun, and course all rolled into one as opposed to looking at just the architecture.  It's just something in our respective brains that point us in the exact opposite direction when it comes to that evaluation.

I bet you wouldn't mind being sentenced to playing no other course but Pacific Dunes for the rest of your life, and the same could be said about me for Pebble Beach.

But Pebble Beach ain't no Pacific Dunes!   

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim:  on that last post we certainly agree - especially the last sentence.

 

[Mike Hendren]

Tim, 

I'm certainly glad that you paid for our lunch Wednesday.  I would have hated to pay then have to suffer through more of your opinion that PD is superior to PB.    You get no credit that the mayor stopped by our table and seconded your opinion.

Just for starters, is there a single par five at PD that is equal to the worst par five at PB?

The $500 tab and playing with strangers does not detract from the brilliant architecture at PB. 

Mike

[Tim Bert]

Tom - I think I'm going to join you in Tampa.  I hope you are locked and loaded. 

Mike -

You heard it from your mayor's mouth.  The 14th is just a muni dogleg with a wacky green that looks pretty cool.   

Just kidding there (though he did say it) as I'm sticking to my guns of not bashing Pebble.  I actually like the 14th.

I think that #3 and #15 at Pacific can be entertained in the same conversation with #2 and #14 at Pebble.  #18 has become one of my least favorites at Pacific over the years, so I won't go there.  I also think #12 is a much better hole than the land-filler people give it credit for.  It's one of my favorites to hit a putt from 100 yards and watch it hump and bump its way to the green.

Can the inland par 4s at Pebble (1, 3, 11, 13, 15, 16) come close to the ones at Pacific (1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 16) ?  I don't see how.

I think the fairways at Pacific hold significantly more interest than the counterparts at Pebble.  I felt like Pacific also provided many more options to approach from land or sky, and while we're at it I'll take the set of greens at Pacific.

Plus, the goose bumps on my arms get bigger when I look at photos from Pacific.

[Stan Dodd]

Tim,
I am sorry we didn't get to play when you were on the left coast because we share many of the same feeling for PD.  It is one of my all time favorites.  I concur with most all your opinions and I love Pebble.
I think for a US Open venue Pebble gets the nod by a wide margin but where I would most like to play my next round PD in a landslide.
Huck is famous for saying you can not ignore the other stuff setting etc.  For me much of the other stuff at Pebble is not to my taste.
I strongly agree with your take on 18 at PD.
Cheers

[Kalen Braley]

I've never figured out why there is no love for #18 at PD. Its a great hole with plenty of strategy and risk/reward.  I wouldn't change a thing on it.

As to Mr. Hendrens query, I would put any par 5 at Pacific up against #2 at Pebble. 

[Tim Bert]

I've never figured out why there is no love for #18 at PD. Its a great hole with plenty of strategy and risk/reward.  I wouldn't change a thing on it.

As to Mr. Hendrens query, I would put any par 5 at Pacific up against #2 at Pebble. 

Kalen - Let's leave it at this.  It's probably personal.  After posting 4 in my first round at #18 to finish 39 on the back side, I've found the risk to be much greater than the reward.  I've posted multiple double-digit scores to finish rounds and the hole has kept me out of the 80s a fair share of time.  Please note that when I say one of my least favorites on the course - if you've read anything I've posted on this thread - you will realize that I've got nothing but love for the whole course including 18.  There's got to be a least favorite everywhere.  It's all relative.

Stan - You and I will get along just fine.