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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
At the risk of offending the gods and never having DR speak to me again at the ice cream shop ::) or wherever it is he speaks....How good was DR?  Was he irresponsible to be mailing out so many courses without really studying the sites?  ;D What brings this up?  I was thinking of how many of his courses I see with landing areas in extremely low areas when with a little tweaking it could have been avoided...My home course has 4 holes where the landing area is in what was a swamp at one time.....people consider it a good course and it is a good course but that would not be tolerated today.....
HOW many great holes have low (wet /non draining/minimal elevation above water table) landing areas.  I don't think there are many.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

Ross certainly liked elevated tees and greens and many holes play down and back up.  While his routings had a lot of strengths, I have never considered his preference for that type of hole a particular strong point.  They always look great from the tee, but they would have had the drainage problems you mention and a preponderance of uphill approach shots.

Maybe it was his way of reducing roll to combat ever increasing tee shot distances of the day? ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,

Ross certainly liked elevated tees and greens and many holes play down and back up.  While his routings had a lot of strengths, I have never considered his preference for that type of hole a particular strong point.  They always look great from the tee, but they would have had the drainage problems you mention and a preponderance of uphill approach shots.

Maybe it was his way of reducing roll to combat ever increasing tee shot distances of the day? ;)
Jeff,
I spoke with him last nite about the very thing you mention regarding distance.....he was pretty pissed that I would question him but he was pretty upset about the new ball and steel shafts.....thruthfully though he doesn't remember much....just his age I guess.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Scott Witter

Mike:

The 6th hole at the Oyster Harbors Club is a very good hole starting with a naturally elevated tee playing down to what was a swamp (it even says so on his construction plans) for a landing area. The left side of the landing area has a jutting hillside (it blocks your complete view of the green site that reaches into the first 3rd of the LZ and there is a bunker cut into the base of this hill.  The second shot is really good playing of course uphill to a fabulous natural plateau green site saddled onto a gentle hill and shaped like a potato chip, with false front and two keenly placed bunkers leading up through the approach.  On his drawings he called for the swamp to be raised 2 feet, but it doesn't appear that this was followed accurately.  IMO, the LZ could have been better with some contour in the fairway, because it is essentially flat now with drainage issues here and there.

This same condition is also found on the 11th hole there where the tee shot is blindly played over a hill that falls away from you 35-40 feet down to a flat-very flat fairway that was also noted on his drawings as a swamp.  He did call for the hillside to be cut and fill used for the fairway, but again it seems not enough cut was made for fill needed.  It is perhaps the dullest hole on the course.

I am sure there are others by Ross and many of the other 'greats' may be guilty as well and it probably still occurs now from time to time, on good and great holes.

Mike_Cirba

Oh Mike...I thought you meant Trump.

Since most everyone here blames him for everything wrong with golf I thought you were as well.  ;)


Sorry I missed you last week.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Oh Mike...I thought you meant Trump.

Since most everyone here blames him for everything wrong with golf I thought you were as well.  ;)


Sorry I missed you last week.
Mike,
Sorry I missed you also.....went to the Phillys game , played a couple of good courses and spent the rest of my time promoting my "Let Mikey keep it classic charity foundation".....I think Cobbs will be my first one....since I had several secret meetings with the people in the know ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Mike,

What else could the low lying areas be used for ?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,
The holes I have seen could have had the routing adjusted forward so that the low, flat non draining areas became a carry....I think in a minimalist world, as it was at that time, that would have been the only practical use.....
Hope all is well.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of the aspects I really like about DR's down-up-downup scheme is the choice of laying to the top and having a longer approach or trying to get over hill to the flat, risking the catching a downhill lie to an uphill green.  I think this is an excellent way to treat a straight hole through valleys.  Its sort of like taking a dune on by going over the top rather than routing through the valleys.  Plus, if there are drainage problems, it is most important to keep the greens high.  Plus, plus, many times, Ross is keeping the wetest areas below the tees.  Its true that low lying wet areas are a risk, but I wonder how much of a risk this was back in the day before watering.  My experience of these sorts of Ross holes is that they are over-watered so it is very difficult to tell if there are drainage issues.  I am sure that Ross made mistakes for whatever reasons.  But, you can't blame mail in designing without more proof than it was a mail in design.  All Ross did was fulfill a need.  In other words, he gave the customer what he paid for.  Bottom line, I ain't buying this criticism of Ross in a general sense.  It sounds suspiciously like the idea of Ross being a one style of bunkering guy.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jason Connor

  • Karma: +0/-0
My former "home club" (a muni I called home) in Cleveland was Manakiki, a Ross design.

10 and 18 were parallel holes with elevated greens and tees with both fairways well below.  The holes were parallel with with a ridge between and trees on both sides of both fairways.  

Not only are the tees and greens above the fairways, but also the right and left sides are well above the fairways.  Both fairways were really bowls.

This picture shows 10 (left), 11 (bottom, par 3) and 18 (right).



Both fairways tended to be SUPER wet even weeks after the last rain as you can imagine.

I think both are (or were) fine golf holes.  10 especially.

So I understand your question, Mike.

But I blame much of the current sogginess on trees.  This is a very wooded course in Cleveland and it is now VERY overgrown.  In the clubhouse they have pictures from 1930 and there trees were tiny and many current trees where even there.  Which means these two fairways got plenty of sunlight.

Now these two fairways basically only get direct sunlight between 11:00 and 12:45 -- I'm exaggerating, but not by much. The trees are very dense, and very tall.  You can see #10 is almost a double dogleg par 4 because the trees on the left are so big and now encroach into the fairway.  A tee shot to the left means the green is unreachable due to the trees without hitting a huge draw.

So the question is valid.  But I believe the better question is "Should Donald Ross have foreseen untamed tree growth when designing low fairways?"

I know that if the people who run Manakiki (it's owned by the City of Cleveland) cut back 80% of these trees, which they should have long ago) these two fairways would be much, much drier.






We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Mike_Cirba

Mike Young,

You're much too much.  ;)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sean and Jason,
I nderstand your view but I am speaking of areas that were filled in swampy areas and they were filled flat.....it was poor routing....and I suspect the holes you mention were also Jason...just a guess....I understand playing to lower elevations BUT NOT TO LOW FLAT AREAS THAT ARE BARELY ABOVE WATER TABLE....he would not have done it if on site..or if he had made another visit.....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike

So far as I can tell, Ross offered differtent levels of services.  Its difficult to blame the man if a club pays for a service (say a mailed in design) then expects a better service.

The club I grew up on was built over swampy areas.  Why that land was chosen - I don't know.  Like many things in life, I suspect someone knew someone else and it was a "good deal".  In any case, Ross didn't have much choice other than to use low lying landing areas just above the water table.  Again, the concept of using high-low-high-low-high worked about as well any concept could given the drainage situation.  What else could Ross do?  He chose to make the greens high and the main landing areas high.  Make sense to me.  It may be hard for us to look back at why decisions were made with our modern knowledge and often times lack of knowledge about what the situations faced.

Of course, after the drainage was well sorted, the club created their own drainage problems by over-watering.  Its amazing really.  Instead of turning the water off, the club recently spent a ton on more drainage.  Which I spose can't hurt, but it would have been interesting to see the effect of reduced watering. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here are a few pics of #10:





Here are a few pics of #18:






Manakiki, if I lived in Cleveland, would be a regular stop for me!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 10:36:15 PM by Rich Hetzel »
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
HOW many great holes have low (wet /non draining/minimal elevation above water table) landing areas.  I don't think there are many.

The 4th, 7th, 11th, 12th and 13th at Lehigh come to mind.  Ross and Flynn - morons.

Seriously Mike, Ross was a damned genius - give it up.  ;)

Mike
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 11:10:52 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
I wonder if Ross ever changed his style over time.  I recall touring Franklin Hills and seeing his field notes. On a few of those uphill holes, the notes say to "cut the green in for vision."  I often make similar notes, and know that next time I route a course, I am a little more wary of routing those uphill holes. Ross had to be smart enough to avoid repeating stuff he didn't like, IMHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike -

I got a call from DR last night. He's upset about this thread. He said when you go to the great gca tribunal in the sky, this will not be forgotten. So good luck with that. Just thought I would let you know. ;)

You raise some good points. One of the things that I never understood about ACC is the location of the old cluhouse. Putting it where they did precluded the use of a lot of good golf terrain. If the old clubhouse had been located where the new one is, DR's routing options would have been better. (Imagine relocating the entrance road to the north and using the tennis courts and the area north of them. Also you would have lots more room behind the 1st and 10th tees to do things.)

Bob 

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,
The holes I have seen could have had the routing adjusted forward so that the low, flat non draining areas became a carry....I think in a minimalist world, as it was at that time, that would have been the only practical use.....
Hope all is well.
Mike

Sort of like the second shot at Athens CC #6 for the flat bellies?

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