[Chip Gaskins]

Scioto's course renovated with a golden touch
Nicklaus played major role in project
Tuesday,  April 29, 2008 3:14 AM
By Bob Baptist
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

The eighth hole at Scioto Country Club is the club's "postcard hole," a 500-yard par-5 on which a stream crosses the fairway, feeds into a lake left of the green and then feeds back out through a stone moat encircling the other three sides of the green.

"It's been a picturesque hole for us for many years," course superintendent Mark Yoder said.

Its beauty, though, was not in the eye of the beholder one day last spring as Jack Nicklaus walked toward a members committee on No. 8 and said, "Well, what do you guys think of this green?"

"The members said, 'We love it,' " said Mike Hurdzan, a local golf course architect who also was there that day. "They said, 'This is our favorite green. It doesn't get any better than this. This is our signature hole.'

"And Jack said, 'Well, I think it's just awful,' " Hurdzan said with a smile, "and I'm saying to myself, 'Oh, my God, this is really going to get fun.'

"Jack said, 'What makes you think this is such a good hole?' Now, all of a sudden, he's (challenging) these members to try to explain to Mr. Jack Nicklaus, winner of 18 majors, why this is such a good golf green? And all of a sudden people are looking at it and saying, 'Well, maybe it isn't so good.' "

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/04/29/scioto_cc_renovation.ART_ART_04-29-08_C1_MLA2CAK.html?sid=101

[Kirk Gill]

I've never played at Scioto. My Grandad used to drive us by the course, on Lane Avenue, and there was a low brick wall around the place that gave you the occasional glimpse of the course beyond. It was right there, and a world away, and the allure of being able to go beyond those walls was one of the things that first drew me to golf. That, and grabbing a burger in the back of the Nicklaus drug store, and the Arlington Golden Bears sweater that my Grandma gave me.

Is it possible to love a place, having never really seen it? Hmmmm.....

The quote that I find most interesting in that article is this part:

"The greens were rebuilt to USGA specifications for drainage, which had been a problem for years. The mandate from the membership was to return them to as they had been in the early 1960s, after a renovation by Dick Wilson in which Donald Ross' original greens were redone by Joe Lee (front nine) and Robert von Hagge (back).

'But as the project moved, and Mike and Jack started working together, we were kind of able to get away from that and change a lot,' Yoder said."

So much for the mandate from the membership !

[David Kelly]

The quote that I find most interesting in that article is this part:

"The greens were rebuilt to USGA specifications for drainage, which had been a problem for years. The mandate from the membership was to return them to as they had been in the early 1960s, after a renovation by Dick Wilson in which Donald Ross' original greens were redone by Joe Lee (front nine) and Robert von Hagge (back).

'But as the project moved, and Mike and Jack started working together, we were kind of able to get away from that and change a lot,' Yoder said."

So much for the mandate from the membership !

That is really an incredible statement by Yoder.   But I guess an 800lb gorilla can do what he wants.

[David Stamm]

"Jack has the influence. I've told him many times, 'With your influence and me being here as often as I am, we're going to make a hell of a golf course out of Scioto.' And he said, 'You're right.' "


Wasn't Scioto a hell of a course before people started thinking they could make it a hell of a course? Was it renovated or restored? 

[Jason Connor]

I'm glad others have written what I was thinking when I saw the original post this morning.

If I ever owned a Ross course (a man can dream), I'd never let Jack Nicklaus anywhere near it with any tools but his golf clubs.

So much for the classic course that was outstanding enough to teach Jack to be a major champion.

[Tom_Doak]

That is a pretty amazing quote to get into the local paper.  I wonder how the green chairman at Scioto feels about it?

In truth, though, every restoration project will uncover a few details along the way which you didn't anticipate at the outset.  [One of the advantages of the long, drawn-out process at Pasatiempo was that we got better information as we went on, and saw more things that we hadn't seen.  We never would have done the 17th green year one.] 

The architect needs to have the faith of the committee to make the most of these opportunities, without long approvals processes by the green committee.  That's part of what the architect is being paid for.  However, that's a different thing from being "able to get away from" the club's stated goals.

[Billsteele]

Nicklaus was never that enamored of the Dick Wilson redesign of Scioto in the 1960's. He has been fairly open about the fact that the current Scioto (post-Dick Wilson)  is not the course he grew up on "which was outstanding enough to teach (him) to be a major champion." The conundrum is that many members, as someone pointed out when I originally posted the link to the article yesterday, only know the Dick Wilson version of Scioto and thus see no need to change it or why the Donald Ross version may or may not be better. The 8th hole is the perfect example. The "signature" hole is wholly a creation of Dick Wilson and the most out of character with Ross' original design and, for that matter, most of the rest of the course. It is as forced on the land and as artificial as it can be...and it is followed by one of the best par threes around (the relatively short uphill 9th...a very natural looking hole where Bobby Jones failed to make par or better when he won the Open at Scioto). Honestly, I can understand the trepidation about any Nicklaus involvement in the project but he is one of the few people who have first hand knowledge of the original Ross design as it existed in the 1950"s. If push came to shove, I would be willing to bet that Jack's ideas for the course would be closer to the Ross version than the Wilson version. Some think that more changes are coming (including some changes at the 8th) and, for better or worse, Scioto's favorite son will be involved in them.

[Chuck Brown]

Nicklaus was never that enamored of the Dick Wilson redesign of Scioto in the 1960's. He has been fairly open about the fact that the current Scioto (post-Dick Wilson)  is not the course he grew up on "which was outstanding enough to teach (him) to be a major champion." The conundrum is that many members, as someone pointed out when I originally posted the link to the article yesterday, only know the Dick Wilson version of Scioto and thus see no need to change it or why the Donald Ross version may or may not be better. The 8th hole is the perfect example. The "signature" hole is wholly a creation of Dick Wilson and the most out of character with Ross' original design and, for that matter, most of the rest of the course. It is as forced on the land and as artificial as it can be...and it is followed by one of the best par threes around (the relatively short uphill 9th...a very natural looking hole where Bobby Jones failed to make par or better when he won the Open at Scioto). Honestly, I can understand the trepidation about any Nicklaus involvement in the project but he is one of the few people who have first hand knowledge of the original Ross design as it existed in the 1950"s. If push came to shove, I would be willing to bet that Jack's ideas for the course would be closer to the Ross version than the Wilson version. Some think that more changes are coming (including some changes at the 8th) and, for better or worse, Scioto's favorite son will be involved in them.

I think Bill said it exceptionally well. 

As for "mandates" from the membership, that might work very well for hiring a club pro, or redecorating the grill room, but how many of the courses that we generally regard as great ones were designed by committee?

Alternatively, how many of the great ones have had their foundations laid by autocrats or lone geniuses?

In golf course architecture, if nowhere else, I vote for "autocrats."

[Tom_Doak]

Chuck:

But do you vote for hiring somebody and letting them be your autocrat?

Bill is right about Scioto in general -- I've heard Pete Dye's version of the same story and how Wilson's version was not the course it used to be. 

I also understand the reluctance of members to change a course that they have known for 40 years -- there was much of the same resistance in our proposal to restore the three changed holes at San Francisco Golf Club, because the members could not remember the original holes are had become attached to the course they knew.  Even so, we surely didn't proceed with the restoration until the club had considered the matter and approved it, even though a few of the resisters are STILL bitter about the whole deal.

In the end, though, Mr. Nicklaus thinks he knows more about golf (and therefore golf design) than Ross AND Wilson put together, so the question is really whether the club wants Jack's version of how it should be.

[Chuck Brown]

Chuck:

But do you vote for hiring somebody and letting them be your autocrat?

Bill is right about Scioto in general -- I've heard Pete Dye's version of the same story and how Wilson's version was not the course it used to be. 

I also understand the reluctance of members to change a course that they have known for 40 years -- there was much of the same resistance in our proposal to restore the three changed holes at San Francisco Golf Club, because the members could not remember the original holes are had become attached to the course they knew.  Even so, we surely didn't proceed with the restoration until the club had considered the matter and approved it, even though a few of the resisters are STILL bitter about the whole deal.

In the end, though, Mr. Nicklaus thinks he knows more about golf (and therefore golf design) than Ross AND Wilson put together, so the question is really whether the club wants Jack's version of how it should be.

Tom, if you are the 'hired autocrat,' the answer is YES!  I've never disagreed with anything you've written, and I'm not starting now!  (Incidentally, it was from you that I learned how much credit for the Seminole of today goes to Dick Wilson, lest this thread be turned into a beat-down on him.)

Elsewhere I asked about Tom Weiskopf's complaints about changes at Scioto and I wondered what his connection to the course might have been.  Did Weiskopf caddy there as a kid?

Is it an urban legend, or was there actually a national "Society for the Preservation of Donald Ross Golf Courses" (differentiated from the respectable Donald Ross Society) that sprang up after the changes made to Scioto?

[Billsteele]

Chuck-I am no expert on Weiskopf but he has no obvious connection to Scioto other than he played at OSU in the early 1960's, undoubtedly had access to Scioto as a result and probably bridged the gap between the Ross version and the Wilson version (I believe Weiskopf turned pro around 1963). He was a Northern Ohio guy (born in Massillon...my hometown, went to high school at Cleveland Benedictine).

[Chuck Brown]

Massillon!  Bo Schembechler used to recruit a lot of our best guys there!   

I never knew that about Weiskopf; I had thought he was a local Columbus product like Jack.  Thanks!

[Paul Saathoff]

So why isn't anyone bashing Hurzdan on this as well?!     

[Matt_Ward]

I think the bigger question is just how good is Scioto period ? Whether Ross, Wilson or the soon to be Nicklaus version.

Take the Jones victory and the Nicklaus connection out of the picture and how much is really left THERE.

I've played the course only twice when Walker Inman was head pro and while the course is challenging in spots I often wonder how it achieved consistent top 50 status in America.

Place it in more competitive areas of the USA and Scioto doesn't leap so quickly to the top of the page.

[Billsteele]

Matt-You certainly have a point there. However, there are many clubs where the tradition and history are difficult to divorce from the actual design (it's the 800 pound gorilla in the room). Few people, none that I know, are alive who can give an assessment of the Ross version. Having played the Wilson version several times, I can think of three holes that I think are outstanding: #2 (the par four with the large fairway bunker on the right which plays slightly uphill), #9 (a very good short par three playing uphill toward the clubhouse to a large and well-bunkered green) and, I believe # 16 ( a par four which plays to a slight rise in the fairway then downhill to the green). There is another par four on the front that I think is pretty good...the hole number escapes me (approach over a creek set at the base of a small hill with the green positioned toward the top of the hill). There are a number of average or slightly above average holes and there are some bad holes (I have previously mentioned #8, I also do not care for #17: a par three with a shot over a water hazard). #18 is somewhat of a bland finisher.
If Scioto did not have the Nicklaus connection and the history/tradition factor, would people think so highly of it? I doubt it. I think it easily is third in the three way race between the prestigious Columbus clubs that I am familiar with: The Golf Club being first, Muirfield Village second and Scioto third (I have never set foot on Double Eagle). I also like the Ross designed Columbus Country Club very much (maybe because it seems like it has a good deal of Ross left...whether that is perception or reality, I don't know).

[Matt_Ward]

Bill S:

First, let me say that too often the "tradition" and "history" argument is nothing more than an attempt to bypass what often is lacking from the actual design merits of any course.

Plenty of courses from yesteryear have milked the parade with the use of those two categories and candidly the quality of many relatively new courses has been held back because they lack "tradition" and "history."

Bill, allow me to dissect a few of your comments. I like the 2nd hole too but it's far from being among the elite holes in the USA. No doubt a strong par-4 but nothing from a design standpoint that says it's clearly above and beyond all others.

By no means am I suggesting that Scioto is not a good course but when one consistently sees it among the top 50 in the USA I have to say that's not the case for me. Scioto benefits enormously from the Jones win and Jack's early years within golf. If more weight were applied to the strict design and what is actually THERE now I don't see how the course would be viewed as highly as so many others seem to believe.

[JLahrman]

There is another par four on the front that I think is pretty good...the hole number escapes me (approach over a creek set at the base of a small hill with the green positioned toward the top of the hill).

Bill, that is #5, a hole which I do not care for myself.  The drive is a layup if the course is playing fast to any degree, with slopes on both side that wind up pushing balls back to the middle.  I personally like #10, #11, #15, and #16.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

"Place it in more competitive areas of the USA"

I always thought Columbus, Ohio was a pretty competitive area for good golf courses myself -- though I never thought Scioto was at the top of the class there.

Chuck:

There was never an official "Society for the Preservation of Donald Ross courses", but I believe the term came from Weiskopf telling a golf writer there ought to be one.  I can't remember whether it was the work to Oak Hill or Inverness that made him say it, but I'm sure the work to Scioto was a factor, too.

[Chuck Brown]

Matt:

"Place it in more competitive areas of the USA"

I always thought Columbus, Ohio was a pretty competitive area for good golf courses myself -- though I never thought Scioto was at the top of the class there.

Chuck:

There was never an official "Society for the Preservation of Donald Ross courses", but I believe the term came from Weiskopf telling a golf writer there ought to be one.  I can't remember whether it was the work to Oak Hill or Inverness that made him say it, but I'm sure the work to Scioto was a factor, too.

That is pretty much my recollection as well, Tom, although my recollection is that it was primarily aimed at Scioto, above all.  In fact, I seem to recall Weiskopf having made the comment in the infancy of his own career in golf course architecture -- I seem to recall that it was before the Lon Hinkle Open at Inverness and before the 1979 PGA at Oakland Hills. 
Thanks so much!

[Glenn Spencer]

Matt-You certainly have a point there. However, there are many clubs where the tradition and history are difficult to divorce from the actual design (it's the 800 pound gorilla in the room). Few people, none that I know, are alive who can give an assessment of the Ross version. Having played the Wilson version several times, I can think of three holes that I think are outstanding: #2 (the par four with the large fairway bunker on the right which plays slightly uphill), #9 (a very good short par three playing uphill toward the clubhouse to a large and well-bunkered green) and, I believe # 16 ( a par four which plays to a slight rise in the fairway then downhill to the green). There is another par four on the front that I think is pretty good...the hole number escapes me (approach over a creek set at the base of a small hill with the green positioned toward the top of the hill). There are a number of average or slightly above average holes and there are some bad holes (I have previously mentioned #8, I also do not care for #17: a par three with a shot over a water hazard). #18 is somewhat of a bland finisher.
If Scioto did not have the Nicklaus connection and the history/tradition factor, would people think so highly of it? I doubt it. I think it easily is third in the three way race between the prestigious Columbus clubs that I am familiar with: The Golf Club being first, Muirfield Village second and Scioto third (I have never set foot on Double Eagle). I also like the Ross designed Columbus Country Club very much (maybe because it seems like it has a good deal of Ross left...whether that is perception or reality, I don't know).

Bill,

I would agree with your rankings for Columbus. I could swap MV and Scioto though. I seem to like Scioto a little more than most here. Where would you put Scioto in relation to Canterbury and Inverness? Would you be shocked or what if Scioto landed the 2016 PGA as the article suggests?

[Sean_A]

Bill S:

First, let me say that too often the "tradition" and "history" argument is nothing more than an attempt to bypass what often is lacking from the actual design merits of any course.

Plenty of courses from yesteryear have milked the parade with the use of those two categories and candidly the quality of many relatively new courses has been held back because they lack "tradition" and "history."

Bill, allow me to dissect a few of your comments. I like the 2nd hole too but it's far from being among the elite holes in the USA. No doubt a strong par-4 but nothing from a design standpoint that says it's clearly above and beyond all others.

By no means am I suggesting that Scioto is not a good course but when one consistently sees it among the top 50 in the USA I have to say that's not the case for me. Scioto benefits enormously from the Jones win and Jack's early years within golf. If more weight were applied to the strict design and what is actually THERE now I don't see how the course would be viewed as highly as so many others seem to believe.

Matt

How is the quality of a new course held back by tradition & history?  I'm a bit lost here.

Ciao

[Dan Boerger]

I used to play in a "Donald Ross" end-of-year tournament at my old club, and one of the flights was always named "Scioto" (others, obviously named after other Ross courses).

If members want to put a go-kart facility between holes, more power to them since it's their right and privilege for paying the freight. But, I wonder, after all this tinkering, will you still call Scioto a Donald Ross design?

[Glenn Spencer]

I wouldn't say that I am really great at identifying who did this work or that work, but I don't think I am the worst either. My "Ross Meter" was probably near 10 at Holston Hills, 9 or so when Miami Valley is playing fast, 8 at Inverness and 6 or 7 out at Scioto, but I haven't been to Scioto in a long time. It felt a lot more Ross than Scarlet felt Mackenzie after the changes, I know that for sure.

[JLahrman]

To bring this back up...

Blurb in the Dispatch today:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2010/06/11/rumblings-6-11-art-g3b8r6lk-1.html?sid=101

"Kerry Haigh, managing director of tournaments and marketing for the PGA of America, was at Scioto Country Club on Monday to gauge whether the club is suitable to play host to a future PGA Championship.  "I don't think there's any questions about" whether the golf course is good enough to play host to the tournament, Scioto general manager Greg Wolf said. "It's more of a logistical thing, and can we generate the revenue they need."  Wolf said Scioto hopes to hear from the PGA within six weeks whether it should pursue its bid. The soonest the course could play host to the year's fourth major would be 2017."

Anybody know anything more about the feasibilty of this?  I have not visited the course in a good ten years, but I do not see how they will be able to get the necessary length that they would seem to need.  Also, the site does not strike me as one that has the space to accomodate the size of the crowds.

[Steve Burrows]

Neither the length nor the spatial constraints for spectators are really any different than Merion.  The difference is in the complexity of the greens, with which Scioto cannot compete with Merion.

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