[JLahrman]

Thanks Steve, I will take your word for it as I have never seen Merion...maybe a couple of strokes a round due to flatter greens is OK if it's the PGA?

[Steve Burrows]

My main point is that the decision to have the US Open at Merion should effectively put an end to the argument that length and logistic should such a large factor in determining that a given course can or cannot host a tournament.  Obviously, the PGA of America may have different criteria than the USGA, but surely they are paying attention. 

As an anecdote, in the summer of 2000, when I was working on the grounds crew at Scioto, I joined an elite club by winning a tournament on property, the aptly named Dirt Ball Open (DBO).  The plaque with my name on it is (or at least was) hanging on the wall in the maintenance shop.  I like to think that this victory places me in the company Bobby Jones' 1926 victory, the 1931 American Ryder Cup team, etc.  Another tournament held at Scioto would place me next to yet another elite name!!!   

[JLahrman]

Thanks Steve, it's an interesting point.  Like I've said, I haven't seen Merion but I feel that Scioto would really test your theory.

My brother was working in the bag shop at Scioto while an undergrad at OSU in 2000, perhaps you might have seen him ditching work to sneak out on the course.

[Bill Hyde]

I think Scioto would make a great venue for the PGA. OSU is right next door for all the parking issues and there is lots of tent space to the right of 14 and all along the club boundary on the river side. As far as green complexes, I don't know what you guys are talking about calling them flat...maybe in comparison to Merion, but c'mon. Scioto is a tough, very fair test of golf and I challenge you to find a course with a better maintenance team than Yoder and Becker. It's firm, green and fun...back tees probably stretch to 7250 and as a Par 70 it's plenty tough. Especially with the rough up. And if history holds true, there will be a Ryder Cup and another PGA after '17. BTW, it would be a great match play venue, too. Wonder if the PGA will ask them to change 8 like Jack wants?

[Mike H]

Glenn Spencer

Since I live in Dayton, I have played a lot of golf at Miami Valley.  Yes, Miami Valley is a nice fun Ross course but in no way could it be a 9 on a Ross scale and be better than Inverness.  While I have not played Scioto I would have a hard time believing that Miami Valley is better than Scioto.  If you know much about Miami Valley the membership hates the changes that were made to the par 3 5th hole.  While MV is a different course when it is hard and fast it still is somewhat short by today's standards.
 

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

The elevation of Scioto comes from the history and tradition -- I've played the course and never thought the place was as special as what I heard prior to playing there. Good course - no doubt / great course - not to me.

On the flip side there are courses that don't have "history" and "tradition" and they lose quality points when those elements are factored in for others.

Steve B:

Merion getting the US Open is only half the battle. The jury's still out on what will happen when the actual event takes place there.

Major compromises have to be made -- gallery size being one of them -- the parking situation and even a small adjustment from the players in heading over to the practice area which is not immediately at the East Course.

Scioto has never really demonstrated much to me -- no doubt the Jones win there in the US Open and having been the home course for JN has helped matters along. Having held a previous Sr. Open I don't see Scioto really handling anything bigger than that. Just my opinion.

[JLahrman]

Bill,

Can I assume that #8 would be the par 5 converted to a par 4 to make it a par 70?

[Steve Burrows]

Matt W.,

That really is the issue, isn't it?  If the decision was only about the best golfers in the world simply playing the game, then Scioto is a worthy choice (even if it's the MOST deserving choice), but when the reality is that these tournaments now exist as a cash cow, which would certainly involve the compromise of selling fewer tickets and corporate tents, then perhaps Scioto is not ideal.  I do admit that the club has in many ways stumbled upon it's tradition (particularly their good fortune of Jones' victory) but it is an imminently respectable golf course with a number of strong golf holes that take advantage of the the lone topographic feature on the property: the creek.

[Bill Hyde]

Bill,

Can I assume that #8 would be the par 5 converted to a par 4 to make it a par 70?

If there is a troublesome thing with Scioto, figuring out which par 5 to convert to a 4 is it.

6 could, but the dogleg makes it tough to do fairly. 8 could be, but the second shot is absurd with all the water...I think this may be why JN wants to get rid of the water right on 8...then it's a solid long par 4.

By the way Matt Ward, history aside, I'm not sure how you cannot call Scioto special...you must play at much nicer places than I do.

[JLahrman]

If there is a troublesome thing with Scioto, figuring out which par 5 to convert to a 4 is it.

6 could, but the dogleg makes it tough to do fairly. 8 could be, but the second shot is absurd with all the water...I think this may be why JN wants to get rid of the water right on 8...then it's a solid long par 4.

By the way Matt Ward, history aside, I'm not sure how you cannot call Scioto special...you must play at much nicer places than I do.

On further thought it would have to be 8, and I don't think they have to take the water out.  It might make it a hole that Nicklaus likes better, but right now it could play as a 4 for the pros no problem.  I remember I hit driver-6 iron there once.  Granted, I really pegged the drive and that was the only time I had a 6-iron left in the 50-100 times I played the hole, but pros peg every drive.  And there is no room to push the tee back due to the way it is wedged between the 7th and 11th greens.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

I don't doubt Scioto is "special" -- it's hosted major events. Jones won there and Nicklaus grew up playing golf under Grout there.

But where's the architecture that screams out "compelling?"

Bill, I can't speak to the type of courses you have played -- Scioto might be on your very short list and that's fine for you. I'm just saying that I only played the Scioto version that Dick Wilson played with. I never played the pure Ross version. In regards to what JN is doing I can only say that certain architects / designers should not be doing restoration work because they really don't have the skills to do it well.

Steve:

OK.

Just tell me how the Columbus area is going to support another big time event -- US Open or even PGA when Jack's event gobbles up all the local area support?

Scioto is a fine course -- but golf architecture, in a number of clear instancs, has passed it by. Take away the majors played there and the Nicklaus connection and how much, if anything, does Scioto have to offer? Don't know if you have read Doak's comments in CG about the course and the famed 2nd hole -- but I found them to be very fair and to the point.

Final item -- Merion's holding of the US Open is a dicey proposition. Limiting ticket sales to 18,500 is only a small part of the problem. The course has not been thoroughly tested since the '81 Open -- I don't give much credence to amateur played events. We shall see if such a return to the rota can be done given the needs of major sites in the 21st century.

Steve / Bill:

One last point -- if any club has the goods but will never go public in terms of a big time event it's another Columbus course -- The Golf Club. In my mind, one of the 2-3 best Pete Dye courses I have ever played. Gets extremely limited attention here for the obvious reasons of very low profile. Be curious to know if either of you have played it and how you would assess it.

thanks ...

[Bill Hyde]

Bill:

I don't doubt Scioto is "special" -- it's hosted major events. Jones won there and Nicklaus grew up playing golf under Grout there.

But where's the architecture that screams out "compelling?"

Bill, I can't speak to the type of courses you have played -- Scioto might be on your very short list and that's fine for you. I'm just saying that I only played the Scioto version that Dick Wilson played with. I never played the pure Ross version. In regards to what JN is doing I can only say that certain architects / designers should not be doing restoration work because they really don't have the skills to do it well.

Steve:

OK.

Just tell me how the Columbus area is going to support another big time event -- US Open or even PGA when Jack's event gobbles up all the local area support?

Scioto is a fine course -- but golf architecture, in a number of clear instancs, has passed it by. Take away the majors played there and the Nicklaus connection and how much, if anything, does Scioto have to offer? Don't know if you have read Doak's comments in CG about the course and the famed 2nd hole -- but I found them to be very fair and to the point.

Final item -- Merion's holding of the US Open is a dicey proposition. Limiting ticket sales to 18,500 is only a small part of the problem. The course has not been thoroughly tested since the '81 Open -- I don't give much credence to amateur played events. We shall see if such a return to the rota can be done given the needs of major sites in the 21st century.

Steve / Bill:

One last point -- if any club has the goods but will never go public in terms of a big time event it's another Columbus course -- The Golf Club. In my mind, one of the 2-3 best Pete Dye courses I have ever played. Gets extremely limited attention here for the obvious reasons of very low profile. Be curious to know if either of you have played it and how you would assess it.

thanks ...

My point, Matt, is that history and provenance aside, this is a great course. I have no idea what Doak said, nor do I care. I have played many rounds here, 2 is one of the best par 4s I have seen. 3, amazing short hole. 4 amazing par 3, totally Ross. 5, one of the best par 4s I have played, Ross, Wilson, whomever...a great hole. 6, a dogleg, but an interesting par 5, 7 a great short par 4, 8, tricky in Jack's eyes, but a beautiful hole, 9...a great par 3, even by GCA standards, again, totally Ross, but why does it matter? 10, amazing par 4, 11, short par 4, criticism could be it's 7 all over again, but a fun hole. 12 a great par 5. 13, great long par 4 with an amazing Ross green. 14 a great long par three with a tough green, 15 great shortish par 4, 16 - a spectacular par 4, again, Ross comes through, the re-designed 17th a great par 3 and 18, similar to # 1, perhaps not the greatest, but bookending 16 terrific holes. 16 out of 18 ain't bad, whether its Wilson, Ross, Nicklaus or Doak. I agree TGC is one of Dye's best, but we're talking about Scioto. TGC members don't want to share and that's their choice, in fact, many of them have dual memberships with SCC. Why? Because it's a classic, regardless of who got their fingerprints on it. Wilson's grubby hands touched Seminole, but we hold that course in high regard. Why should Scioto suffer where Seminole gets a hall pass...the locker room, the names on the wall? Let's be fair.

[Ronald Montesano]

My main point is that the decision to have the US Open at Merion should effectively put an end to the argument that length and logistic should such a large factor in determining that a given course can or cannot host a tournament.  Obviously, the PGA of America may have different criteria than the USGA, but surely they are paying attention.     

Steve B. and Matt W.,

Matt W. is correct...I remember the 2003 PGA at Oak Hill...the lack of an overhead bridge (as they use at Bethpage for USGA events) from putting green to first tee stopped gallery traffic WAY TOO OFTEN and created logjams and frustration among spectators.  Merion has that whole stretch of (is it?) Ardmore Avenue that they can close to traffic from Haverford Road to Darby Road (and farther, to the West course) if need be.  Toronto gave the go-ahead to a shut-down of Islington Avenue this summer for the Canadian Open at St. George's, so that access to Islington Country Club for practice facilities can be achieved.

Practice area access at Merion, while not ideal, will still be doable, thanks to access roads along the railroad tracks.  Haverford College's athletic fields are available for parking and other necessities.  For Scioto, OSU is a bit farther away, along West Lane and Riverside, but the mammoth size of the university will certainly afford other opportunities, if El Vaquero Mexicano across the way doesn't want a piece of the action.

[Steve Burrows]

Matt W.

Do we invalidate other championships because they played on courses that are not "compelling?". Do we take away the US Open titles of Jim Furyk, Jerry Pate, Orville Moody, or those of Irwin and Middlecoff at Medinah, or others because the golf course didn't meet some arbitrary standard of architectural merit as understood by a select few on this site?  Hardly.

As I said before, if money is an issue (if the USGA or PGA are overly concerned with money) then perhaps the logistical issues associated with Scioto are prohibitive.  But, if they just want to play golf, then Scioto could more than hold it's own, despite your protests.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Let's start again shall we ... having a major is not PROOF of "compelling architecture."

Hosting of majors is dependent upon a range of items -- the architecture is just one of many things. Simply look at Torrey Pines South as a great example of what I just wrote.

Scioto may not have the necessary facilities to remotely handle a major. We don't know how Merion will turn out and frankly until the event concludes the jury is out on that one. Does Merion / East have "compelling architecture?" Without question. Does it need a US Open to validate the course. No, it doesn't.

Steve, you are confusing the idea that winning a major -- an impressive accomplishment -- is somehow tied to the course that hosts such an event as being noteworthy. One is not the other. I am not lessening the successes of those who have won majors -- I am not simply buying into the fallacy that hosting a major is proof positive that such a course contains "compelling architecture" of the highest order.

Steve, one final thing -- look at what the Seniors did when they played Scioto for their Open event. Dale Douglas won the event - not a bonafide superstar and with a -5 total. I'm not saying Scioto is not a good golf course -- from  the ones I have played I would not put it into the great category -- certainly it's not #2 in the Columbus area with MV and TGC ahead of it by a considerable margin.

Just my opinion that's all.

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Thanks for your comments.

Bill, you keep on saying "great." You'd have to tell me how you come to such a conclusion? How many of the top 100 courses in the USA have you personally played? I ask this because I need a frame of reference before the word "great" has ANY meaning. It may be "great" for you based on what you have played. Scioto is not even the first or second best course in the greater Columbus area. My God, for all the talk you and others are making -- The Golf Club is a good bit better in my mind.

Please don't bask in ignorance when you say you don't care what Doak says. I'm not saying you need to agree but having the input of different sources does flush out the subject a bit more.

It would help matters for full disclosure if you are a member of the course. I salute your home town pride but the USA is one big country and there's a lot of superlative golf out there. I did not say Scioto is not worth playing for those fortunate to have the opportunity but if you and others see it as being "great" then I'd recommend some time in the car / train / plane and sample others that are out there now.

By the way Bill -- I don't give Seminole a "pass." But if you think the OH course is comparable to that of the FL course then you really need to examine what Ross / Wilson did there. Seminole is beyond Scioto and most people would likely agree with me on that one. I do appreciate your take though.

[Steve Burrows]

Steve:

Let's start again shall we ... having a major is not PROOF of "compelling architecture."

I am not simply buying into the fallacy that hosting a major is proof positive that such a course contains "compelling architecture" of the highest order.

I couldn't agree more, but your invocation of The Golf Club as a superior venue for a tournament than Scioto betrays your words.  By your admission, more compelling architecture is highly desirable as a criteria for hosting a major.  But let's not kid ourselves, number three in the Columbus area is still a pretty good golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Again, wrongo on your part.

I never nominated TGC for a major event or any other golf championship of importance.

I simply said it has the more compelling architecture than Scioto.

Steve, try to realize being a good to very good course is no slap in the face. However, a top 100 position is another matter indeed.

[Chuck Brown]

But now the Presidents Cup is coming to MVGC.  When would Scioto host a PGA in relation to a Muirfield President's cup?  Would/could the Columbus metropolitan area stand a Presidents Cup, a PGA and two or three Memorials in the space of two or three years?

Oh, add to that, 1-2 OSU-Nebraska and OSU-Michigan football games...

[Matthew Rose]

I always thought it was "Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Donald Ross courses".

[Chuck Brown]

I always thought it was "Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Donald Ross courses".

That works!   

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

For those who have played Scioto my comments are not that it's not a good golf course -- it is.

The question is whether it has enough juice to still be competitive with the types of courses that have opened in the last 25 years.

For a top 100 placement I don't see it.

[Ryan DeMay]

Blurb in today's Columbus Dispatch regarding Scioto possibly hosting the 2016 US Senior Open.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2011/11/04/rumblings-11-4-art-gjdeohfo-1.html

[JLahrman]

Interesting...personally it seems a stretch to me for Scioto to be hosting a PGA Championship, but I think it could be a great host for something like the US Senior Open.

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